[ky70]

It's time to put this to another vote. I'm strictly talking about tourney games here. Do you like rebuys? Why or why not?

Here's why I'm against them:
* I think the rebuy option decreases the overall quality of play. With a rebuy in their back pocket, the strategy for many would be to try and double up early and as a result, play will be more reckless
* I hate the idea of having to eliminate the same person more than once
* A player who's just holding his head above water but isn't low enough in chips to rebuy (depending on the threshold) is penalized for having average results while the people that had bad results can buy more chips and sometimes come back in with equal or more chips than the guy that's been grinding it out. I realize this may not be the set up with many rebuy formats but I know that it is with some.
*You lost all your chips so you don't deserve to be in this game any longer...the loser's side table is that way.

[Wylecoyo]

There are advantages and disadvantages either way. For friendly home tourneys (the type I normally play) re-buys are great. They allow everyone to have fun and give the option to either set out (deal) or keep playing if you make a poor decision; however, we do limit the re-buys (maximum of two, only one per person, and only available during the first 4-5 rounds of play). For real money tournaments, re-buys are a double-edged sword – they can inspire reckless play, allowing players to take more risks because they know they have a lifeline; however, they also provide a way to extend the prize pool and allow winners to pocket more money. I guess its six of one, one half-dozen of the other.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm just not getting the quality of play argument. In online tournaments, yeah, I can see how it gets reckless and people are just trying to double up and all that crazy play. I don't see that in my home game though. Play is definitely a little looser, but I don't see how that decreases the "quality" of play. You have to be able to adapt to all sorts of games. If play is loose and wild and everyone is gambling it up, and you want to play it safe, play tight, lay back, and pounce when you've got a big hand. The other option is to go ahead and loosen up yourself and try to flop a monster with your speculative starting hands. You're going to get paid off while the game is wild. How is that a bad thing?

The bottom line is, it's all legitimate poker. It's not of poor quality just because the play is loose. For me, I like the first hour during rebuy time. The blinds are low so you can be more involved. It gets boring fast to play fold, fold, fold, tight poker all the time. And in case you do flop a monster, but then get sucked out on, you've got the rebuy to fall back on. Again, long term, skill will win out. In this case, your skill is getting a second chance to get back in the money after a short term luck out just knocked you out.

[hachkc]

Voted: Chip & Chair option

All things considered I don't have a big opinion on rebuy vs no rebuy. There are some pros and cons to them that I won't rehash here. My only big concern is that they are fair. By that I mean, if you are doing rebuys you should also do add-ons so the folks that didn't bust out but are short stacked don't feel shorted. Assume you can rebuy T1000 for $20, maybe offer 2 add-on types such as T500 for $10 or T1000 for $20. Allow the short stacks to add enough chips to be ahead of the rebuyer's.

Also, I think the rebuy money should be spread evenly amongst all paid spots. I played in a 31-man tournament with rebuys/add-ons where just about everyone did the add-on/rebuy option so I was basically forced to do it also as I was done to about 1/2 my starting stack. Apparently, the rebuy money only went to 1st thru 3rd. I placed 5th (first money spot) and lost $10 because the $40 I won didn't cover my buyin + add-on; I think first paid between $650-$750.

[Matthew]

We do freezeouts.

[ky70]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

I'm just not getting the quality of play argument. In online tournaments, yeah, I can see how it gets reckless and people are just trying to double up and all that crazy play. I don't see that in my home game though. Play is definitely a little looser, but I don't see how that decreases the "quality" of play. You have to be able to adapt to all sorts of games. If play is loose and wild and everyone is gambling it up, and you want to play it safe, play tight, lay back, and pounce when you've got a big hand. The other option is to go ahead and loosen up yourself and try to flop a monster with your speculative starting hands. You're going to get paid off while the game is wild. How is that a bad thing?

It's just my opinion, but rebuys=looser play. Also, I think the penalty for reckless play that is unsuccessful (sometimes reckless play will get payed off big) should be the loss of your chips and the loss of the opportunity to win THIS particular game

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

The bottom line is, it's all legitimate poker. It's not of poor quality just because the play is loose. For me, I like the first hour during rebuy time. The blinds are low so you can be more involved. It gets boring fast to play fold, fold, fold, tight poker all the time. And in case you do flop a monster, but then get sucked out on, you've got the rebuy to fall back on. Again, long term, skill will win out. In this case, your skill is getting a second chance to get back in the money after a short term luck out just knocked you out.

I wouldn't say that my freezout games are tight (I have quite a few loose players) but players do tend to fold to sizeable bets when "they don't have it" and I'm not sure if that's always the case with rebuys where the thinking may be, "what the heck, I either double up or rebuy" with this inside straight draw, but in freezeout the thinking is I double up or I'm out on sidelines (but at my game a side game awaits the bust outs).

[hachkc]

I would agree that rebuys encourage somewhat looser play but I don't believe we are discussing a major shift in game dynamics. I could see being short stacked with 2nd or 3rd best hand and calling when I think I might be beat because I know I can get back in if I'm wrong.

But in general, the bad players will rebuy more often but that doesn't mean they are going to play better all of a sudden because they've rebought. Also, its probably easier to get someone to throw $25 in twice than $50 in once at the beginning. This should be make it easier to play for higher stakes without having higher buyins. Plus if us "good" players get our AA cracked by some RCMF who called our all in preflop with J10 suited, we can suck it up, rebuy and hope he keeps playing that way the rest of the night.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by hachkc

By that I mean, if you are doing rebuys you should also do add-ons so the folks that didn't bust out but are short stacked don't feel shorted. Assume you can rebuy T1000 for $20, maybe offer 2 add-on types such as T500 for $10 or T1000 for $20. Allow the short stacks to add enough chips to be ahead of the rebuyer's.

Also, I think the rebuy money should be spread evenly amongst all paid spots. I played in a 31-man tournament with rebuys/add-ons where just about everyone did the add-on/rebuy option so I was basically forced to do it also as I was done to about 1/2 my starting stack. Apparently, the rebuy money only went to 1st thru 3rd. I placed 5th (first money spot) and lost $10 because the $40 I won didn't cover my buyin + add-on; I think first paid between $650-$750.

You bring up a good point and I ran into that quite a bit with the short stacks. One thing I dislike about the rebuys is that the last couple of hands before the rebuy period ends become all-in fests while the short stacks try to go broke. I should clarify that I used to only allow rebuys on a bustout. I had a couple of times where we'd get multiple all-ins on the last hand and sure enough, someone winds up with 100 or 200 left when the dust clears. Meanwhile, the shorter stacks that busted are now back up to the full 1500 after a rebuy.

Going forward, I'm going to allow rebuys below a certain chip count, not just bust. This should help prevent that problem. I don't particularly like add-ons. We've used them before when we play a longer game and are looking for a big pot. My problem with them is, at least with my group, you're practically compelled to do the add-on because everyone else does it.

I've never heard of a structure where rebuy money doesn't go into the full prize pool. That's crazy!

[pager23]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Going forward, I'm going to allow rebuys below a certain chip count, not just bust. This should help prevent that problem. I don't particularly like add-ons. We've used them before when we play a longer game and are looking for a big pot. My problem with them is, at least with my group, you're practically compelled to do the add-on because everyone else does it.

I've noticed the same effect with add-ons, but I keep them in my home games because it REALLY limits the "all-in fest" at the cutoff.

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

I've never heard of a structure where rebuy money doesn't go into the full prize pool. That's crazy!

Agree. That's insanity.

Edit: This is the post that put me "In The Money"!

[mrticsay]

i don't care for rebuys and addons primarily because of the disruption more so than the play. we typically have 14-20 players and tonight we'll have our second tournament in which we've eliminated this. we found that everyone was doing adding (for us its usually $25 entry and $10 addon) so we've just made it $35 to start, collect all the money and play. there were no complaints the 1st time, and so far no complaints for the second one. pretty much everyone has agreed they want anything that gives them more playing time (ie two decks).