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Topics of discussion: Dead blinds, dead Dealer & Ante

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by Raf, Apr 20, 2015.

  1. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    I have to figure that the local home games in my neck of the woods aren't the only places where these two discussions come up and after all the bicker and bantering, not everyone is on the same page. I have my view on it and am pretty 99% sure on the correct manner in which these things go, but for the sake of showing these guys with whom the back & forth debate happens and not leave any room for them to say that there's any partiality or me swaying anyone....I'll leave my take out until this place, full of much more knowledgeable poker players settle these two things once and for all....at least for the games I partake in. I think with this thread as a source of referrence, we can finally nip it in the bud.

    TOPIC 1: Dead blinds (either of the two) & dead Dealer, do they get dealt cards or not?

    -How are these handled? Say the player in the big blind who would have been on the small blind on the following hand goes all in, loses... The following hand is now being dealt.... Does the dead small blind get cards dealt?

    -Same applies to the other two spots, both the dead dealer and dead big blind. For now, lets focus on the UTG player, which is ridiculous for me to even ask this but to some....it's valid. The UTG player goes all in, covering the big blind with say 5 big blinds on top...his PP gets crushed and is knocked out. Is there a dead big blind? And if there is...does it get dealt cards?

    -Lastly...the dead Dealer position. Small blind player in current hand, covers the big blind plus 5 big blinds, pushes and loses, is knocked out. Next hand is a dead dealer spot to keep the blinds in place. When dealing for this player....does the dead dealer spot get dealt cards?


    TOPIC 2: Say at a certain blind level you anticipate to be the final table and figure antes will help move the tourney to a finish, especially when it's at the bubble where players tend to really tighten up... Who all pays for antes? Is it all players, including the blinds or all players except the blinds since the blinds have their antes already calculated within their blind pay.

    Say it's 9 handed: Are the blinds supposed to pay an ante on top of their blinds?

    SB: 2K
    BB: 4K
    UTG: 500 ante
    UTG +1: 500 ante
    UTG +2: 500 ante
    MP: 500 ante
    HJ: 500 ante
    CO: 500 ante
    D: 500 ante

    Thanks ahead of time!

    Side note: Regarding the first topic...I know that depending on the host (either online or live), blinds are positioned incumbent on where the dealer button moves, thus is button dependent and others are positioned according to the movement of the big blind. Just so things remain clear, lets stick to the former, where it's button dependent. Where the button moves, thus blinds are positioned. The focal point is in terms of whether the dead blinds and dealer spots get dealt cards, which does have an influence on the hand.
     
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  2. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
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    See my responses in green. Good luck, and have fun!
     
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  3. Jeff

    Jeff Super Moderator
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    I agree with Marsha's answers. It never occurred to me that a dead blind would get cards as I have never heard it discussed, much less done. Has anyone else seen that?
     
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  4. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    Neither have I. Neither seen nor heard that even be considered but Saturday had this issue come up twice in which a player blurted out that it was how it was supposed to be done and adamantly stuck to his conviction that dead position (of the 3 mentioned) are to be dealt cards.

    I don't like to come off as the be all, end all of poker cause I'm far from that. And so no one gets that idea, I figured I'd make this thread and let others set the record straight. If it was my place, I'd have stuck to what I know and enforce it. Since it wasn't my place, I only threw in my two cents, most disagreed with that player but the stench of the debate still lingered until the tourney ended.
     
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  5. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, you guys, Abby and Jeff.

    Just so no misinterpretations can be made, the following is the proper format, correct? Meaning that typically (but not always), when antes are in play prior to any calls or raises, the pot can basically be seen as a rule of thumb of 2.5 BBs before any action occurs, correct?


    SB: 500 ante + 2K SB
    BB: 500 ante + 4K BB
    UTG: 500 ante
    UTG +1: 500 ante
    UTG +2: 500 ante
    MP: 500 ante
    HJ: 500 ante
    CO: 500 ante
    D: 500 ante
     
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  6. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
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    Antes and blinds are paid before any cards are dealt. The dealer should pull the antes into the center (or wherever the pot is located), making sure that every player has anted, and leaving the blind bets in front of those players. Antes are taken from a player's stack if that player happens to be away from the table. Again, all this is done before any cards are dealt.

    On a related note, a player who is away from the table is still responsible for paying his/her antes and blinds, which are taken from that person's stack. The procedure that I'm most familiar is that the absent player is dealt cards, his/her hand is killed either immediately after the last card is dealt or when the action gets to that player, depending on house rules and procedures. I think that the more common rule for live tournaments is to kill the absent player's hand immediately after the last card is dealt.

    Edit: I found the TDA rule on dealing to an absent player:

    Player Present / Eligible for Hand

    29: At Your Seat

    A player must be at his seat when the first card is dealt on the initial deal or he will have a dead hand. A player not then at his seat is dealt in, he may not look at his cards, and the hand is immediately killed after the initial deal. His blinds and antes are posted and if dealt the bring-in card in a stud-type game he will post the bring-in*. A player must be at his seat to call time. “At your seat” means within reach of your chair. This rule is not intended to condone players being out of their seats while involved in a hand. [*Note: In stud, house rules may require additional card(s) be dealt to the killed hand in certain situations.]​
     
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  7. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    Excellent explanation. There should be no confusion whatsoever with that.
     
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  8. CaptLego

    CaptLego Super Moderator
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  9. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    Another seconding opinion, written while playing online (and unaware of other previous answers):

    Empty seats (no chips, no player) do not get dealt cards. Ever.

    There is never a dead big blind. A live player (always the next in line) always posts the big blind. There might be a dead small blind position (if that spot was just eliminated), or a dead dealer position (if that spot was just eliminated), but never a dead big blind.

    Every player at the table posts an ante, regardless of position or whether also posting blinds.
     
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  10. lnlver

    lnlver Well-Known Member

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    Can a player ever get cards when he/she's the button, having just moved to the table? i.e., the small blind has just busted; does the button stay where it is, or does it move to the pen seat which becomes the button? And if it does move, does the new player occupying the button get dealt into the hand? I believe the button has to stay where it was when the last hand was dealt (as a dead button) and the new player has to wait until the button passes him in order to first play.
     
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  11. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
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    Tournament: From the TDA rules:

    9: Breaking Tables​

    Players going from a broken table to fill in seats assume the responsibilities of the position. They can get any seat including the big or small blind or button. The only place they cannot be dealt a hand is between the small blind and the button.​

    Cash: I know of two solutions to this situation. (1) The new player sits down but is not dealt a hand until after the button has passed him; and (2) The new player "buys the button" by posting a big blind and a dead small blind (which goes directly into the pot). In #2, the players who would have posted the blinds on this hand wait for the next hand to pay their blinds.

    Also, check out the animation linked to in post #8 in this thread.
     
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  12. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
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  13. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

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    cant put it any better than abby put. rules are rules.


    but, at home games (to which i have been to a lot) the house always have the final say. thats why they call them house rules. i have seen a lot of quirky house rules.

    its really not your place to challenge any of these rules (unless 1 you are asked your opinion or 2 the host has the "deer in the headlights" look when asked for a ruling. then gently suggest the proper ruling)

    i have seen arguments (usually from ignorant people) that have busted up a home game. which sux because its usually a soft game if people dont know "casino" or standard rules.

    you have to be careful at home games. just go with the flow if not asked, and adjust your game accordingly. you really dont want to "rock the boat" at anothers home game. thats the fastest way to not get invited back. and trust me, if you find one of these type of games you usually want to be invited back. if they are too lazy to look up the rules, then you can surely assume that they are not working on their game away from the table. = +++++ev
     
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  14. catalyzeme

    catalyzeme Well-Known Member

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    At the casinos I have played at, even if you had chips but weren't at your chair they would skip you during the deal. I haven't ever actually seen someone get dealt then immediately folded by the dealer, in my experience they just don't deal you in.

    At a home game, there's definitely no reason to be dealing to a seat without a player. How you you deal with players getting a drink or in the restroom is really up to you.

    In my game, we deal them in and then heckle them mercilessly until act.
     
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  15. Stephania Overton

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    About the last comment, the casino where we go, they don't deal to you if you are not in your seat - unless all the players know each other and agreed for a quick break. Normally, though, nothing delays a game. Aside from that, the dealers are on strict schedule, so they really are not allowed to dilly dally :) Of course, the more games played, more money for the casino, right? So they have to deal as many games as possible ... lol
     
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  16. pltrgyst

    pltrgyst Well-Known Member

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    In AC tournaments, the definitely deal to all stacks, including those of players who haven't shown up and been seated yet.
     
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  17. tracezany

    tracezany Member

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    Hi, yes , I agree to this. Before you seat and deal , you must be very sure that you have the money for that game. After all it is a game of luck ..lol
     
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  18. Bloody Marvellous

    Bloody Marvellous Well-Known Member

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    I went through the whole thread, but didn't find any post that clarified the difference between cash games and tournaments. (This doesn't affect the previous answers about dead buttons or SBs).

    POSTING BLINDS/ANTES

    Tournament
    In a tournament, each player needs to post antes (if applicable) and blinds (when it's their turn). Whether they're at the table or not. If you're not at the table the antes/blinds are posted from your stack by the dealer. You are not allowed to miss blinds.

    Cash game
    In a cash game you don't pay antes or blinds when you're not at the table. When you return to the table and have missed blinds, you have the option of posting the missed blinds and playing the next hand, or to wait until you are the big blind (in which case you do not have to make up for missed blinds). If you miss more than one round of blinds, you only pay the missed blinds for the round in which you left the table, and not for subsequent rounds. You never post missed antes.
    -- Example: You're in the BB and have played that hand, but get up from the table to go to the bathroom. Since you've had some bad food the night before, you're in there for quite a while. When you get back to the table two rounds have been played. Since you only missed the SB when you got up, you have the option to post the SB and be dealt a hand immediately, or you can wait until you're the BB and post then.

    Buying the Button
    Many casinos will allow you to "Buy The Button" in cash games when you return to your seat in the SB position. When Buying The Button you post both the SB and the BB (the SB goes in the pot as dead money). No one else will post any blinds that round. The next hand you receive the Dealer Button (hence "buying the button").

    MOVING TABLES

    Tournament
    When moving tables in a tournament you should be dealt a hand no matter in what position you're seated at the table. There are no missed blinds to be made up, and if you're seated in the SB/BB/DLR position, you take the responsibilities for that position.

    Cash Game
    When being moved in a cash game (when the Casino decides to break up a cash game table), you are dealt a hand immediately if you're not in the SB or DLR position. If you are in the SB or DLR position you need to wait until the button has moved past your seat to play. You do not need to post any "missed" blinds because you haven't missed any (unless you missed blinds at the previous table).
    If you're moving tables on your own accord, you are considered a new player and will have to post the BB to be dealt a hand immediately or wait until you are the BB.
     
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    Last edited: May 6, 2015
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  19. Stephania Overton

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    This reminds me of the poker competition at one of my client companies. We were trying to set rules, you know, since it is an informal one anyway. We decided that the employees will purchase their chips ahead of time. We even put a cap a minimum and cap on how much they can purchase so they will not be pressured to spend too much. It was supposed to be a fun night after all. :)
     
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