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Soooo sick of suckouts...!!

Discussion in 'Poker Stories and Bad Beats' started by thebrokenone, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. thebrokenone

    thebrokenone Well-Known Member

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    Quick background: weekly NLHE tourney w/ 8 regulars. 5 players left, I'm UTG w/ second chip lead (about 3,000 chips), BB is a wild calling station w/ chip lead (around 4,500).

    I catch KsKc and raise 5x the BB, folds around to BB who simply calls... as expected. Flop comes 2c,3h,7s. BB checks, I bet the same 5x BB to see where I am, it wouldn't be the first time tonight he called down w/ the hammer, BB just calls. Turn is Ah, BB checks, I bet about half the pot (BB NEVER limps w/ any Ace... so I know I'm still ok), BB calls. River is 5s. BB best about 10xBB... I know he caught the wheel.... disgusted, I call it down. He flips over Q4o and drags the pot.

    This is the worst of the 3 horrible suckouts he handed me last night. At this point, my stack's crippled, I end up all in w/ AKo and finish 5th for the first time.

    So.... my question is -- how do YOU play the maniac calling stations in YOUR game?
     
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  2. softchewy

    softchewy Well-Known Member

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    Probably a much larger bet (basically pot committed) or all in after that flop. Need some ammmo to scare him out, otherwise sounds like you will probably get called on a draw and would be better off maybe just checking, let him tell you where he is at.
     
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  3. SpaceMonkey

    SpaceMonkey Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the fact it's a bad beat story, you need to tell us what the blinds were too. 50-100?
     
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  4. thebrokenone

    thebrokenone Well-Known Member

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    Woops, yeah, it was 50-100.

    As far as betting him off of a draw... one of his other catches of the night... blinds were 10-20, I was chip leader in BB w/ K8d, 3 limpers, he's in the SB, raises to 100... I've got a lot of chips so I figure I'd see the flop... limpers call. Flop comes Kh 8s 3d, he bets the same 100, I push all-in, trying to just take down the pot right there, folds around to SB, he calls... we flip, he has A4h... turn and river go runner runner hearts. He loves to call.... oh well.
     
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  5. tomb1

    tomb1 Well-Known Member

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    No disresepct intended 'cause I've done similar things before, but . . .

    If you "knew" he had the wheel, why did you call it for that amount of money?

    If you were all-in and got river'd, that's one thing. But if you had the chance to fold to a better hand, I don't call that a suck-out. Your pot odds may have been OK, but throwing money after the 2nd best hand at the table is a something we all need to learn to avoid. Just my 2¢.
     
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  6. softchewy

    softchewy Well-Known Member

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    Nothing you can do about that, the "right" play doesn't always win.. doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Odds are in your favor, just have to try to stay consitent. Point is you basically went in for all your chips with your KK eventually, just that doing it a little at a time will keep him in and if he calls your all in, and hits the straight (which would then be a suck out), I still think it would be the right play if your read is right that he is drawing.
    Just my thoughts, I am by no means an expert player.
     
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  7. dad604

    dad604 Well-Known Member

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    I agreed, not much you can do if he will call anything to the river. Maybe bet allin on the flop but that is not the right play normally too. Also if you read him for the wheel on the river, fold to his 10x bet.
     
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  8. SteveA

    SteveA Well-Known Member
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    I have the same problem with a couple of my players. In one case I was betting strong all the way to the river and I was raised. I knew he caught his flush and I layed it down (he actually showed a straight flush).

    I asked him how he could make those calls and told him he was a poor poker player and that he would lose in the long run. He hastn't listened:

    http://www.homepokerclub.net/clubstandings.php?clubid=1 (the calling station's ErikA)
     
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  9. FetishGirl

    FetishGirl Well-Known Member

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    With KK you could easily have pushed him out of that pot. He missed the flop totally and had no draw with his terrible Q4 off suit. Make it too expensive for him to make those type of plays. But don't tell him he's a lousy player. Tell him he's got the heart of a champion and stuff like that. Let him continue his play. You'll make a lot of money off this guy in the long run.
     
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  10. jojobinks

    jojobinks Poker Nerd (and Admin)
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    bottom pair and a flush draw
    you bet half the pot on the flop. not enough for these kinda guys. i bet 2/3-3/4, b/c i'm not interested in juicing them for value, i KNOW they'll call once in awhile, and that's my value.

    when the A came on the turn, you should have been nervous. you say he never limps with an A. he didn't! he called a big raise from you. he could have easily done that (knowing his type) with A2-AK. a different type of player might reraise AK, but not a station. so then you bet 1/2 the pot again when the A hits? now, if it were me, I might just call (as opposed to raise) with AK. you're trapping yourself with that bet, methinks.

    on the river, even though you "knew" he had the river, i might call too. he was betting 1k into a 4k pot. at that point, it's hard to let go.

    now: how do i play these guys?
    HOH1 is all about this type of situation, IMO, and he really changed my POV about bad players. here's the thing: these guys are unpredictable, and they act in illogical ways. so let's pretend it doesn't matter what the logic to calls/folds are. let's pretend he flips a coin to decide. YOU SHOULD LOVE THAT! the reason why is that as the bettor, you control the odds he'll be receiving. in this case, with a station drawing against you, you can offer him odds that aren't favorable to his draw (you did this just fine, btw, just not in as forceful a manner as i'd prefer to do myself). when he called you PF, on the flop and turn, he made huge mistakes each time.

    over time these mistakes will cost him dearly. in the short-term, he'll bust you once in awhile. as a bad beat, it's kinda ho-hum :roll: . as a "how to play this kind of guy," it's valuable and important in the extreme, imo.
     
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  11. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Well-Known Member

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    jojo nailed it. You didn't really do anything terribly wrong. You gave him bad odds to draw at runner-runner after the flop and at a gutshot + possible overcard on the river. Sometimes the fish have to eat also.

    Never, NEVER tell them what a stupid call they made. You WANT him to keep making those calls. The problem is, it's still going to bite you in the ass on occasion. In the long run though, you'll come out way ahead.
     
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  12. vanquish

    vanquish Well-Known Member

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    YES! What's the 2+2ism? Don't tap on the fish tank! The guy that will make a mistake by chasing a draw when he doesn't have the odds is your favorite player at the table. You want to encourage his bad play if you need to say anything. Not "You suck at poker." Just say "Good hand." That's all you need to do. Cause after hearing for the 4000th time that he sucks, he just might go read a book and stop sucking, and that would be a terrible loss for you (and if he plays online, for all of us)!
     
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  13. smoore

    smoore Creativity Alliance

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    I push on the flop here against these types. I don't push on the flop against reasonable opposition, but anyone who calls a big PF raise with Q4o is not reasonable. I'm happy to just take the pot down on the flop, or if he does call he's getting way the worst of it and at least I got my money in with the best hand.
     
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  14. thebrokenone

    thebrokenone Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all of the replies. I'll be sure to make a much larger PF raise, or just push after the flop next time I'm in a similar position. I'd like to say I'd fold to that river bet in that situation, but I don't think I could lay it down.

    I made sure to boost his ego a bit (when I handed him his 1st place money)... told him how well he played. I'm sure he'll be raising his 92o again this week too.
     
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  15. jojobinks

    jojobinks Poker Nerd (and Admin)
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    bottom pair and a flush draw
    just so we're clear, making a huge preflop raise and pushing the flop isn't any more correct than the way you actually played it. and the goal of poker is not to win the pot...it's to win money. you played this hand not so bad looking to make money.

    raising 10xBB is gonna make you the blinds. if that's what you're after with your AA than so be it.

    you won't find me doing it though.
     
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  16. thebrokenone

    thebrokenone Well-Known Member

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    We are crystal clear jojo -- by the way I really do appreciate the advice. I'm only talking about pushing if I'm in the same position with this clown. (no pun intended :happy: ) Other than that, I'll stick to my standard mix of 3x,4x and 5x the BB... UTG or in the blinds I tend to favor 5x...
     
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  17. dad604

    dad604 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is the way to bet pf, 3x to 5x. Don't push all in like some fish. You might have been suck out on this one but you will win more than you lose if he keeps on playing same way. You want him to call, just bad luck he suck out on you. They have to suck out once in awhile or else they will quit playing. I should as hell wouldn't want him to play properly and fold, that is a sign of a good player.
     
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