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Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by TexRex, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. jjbcentral

    jjbcentral Creativity Alliance

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    Our games were always the same. No "real" rules but we were lucky and never had any real problems.
    Well, I tried :wink:
     
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  2. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    No real issues until this game and I've played with them for about 2.5 years. But lately we've had several new players in, and some seem to have their own ideas about the rules. I'm hoping they see the need to adopt rules.
     
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  3. QuiQuog

    QuiQuog Well-Known Member

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    It would be a mistake to make a rule that you have to keep your promises. How would you even word that without sounding like it's a game for 8 year olds? More importantly, how would you enforce it? Would you have to say the word "promise" for it to be binding, or would the intent be sufficient? What if they said somethging that was more vague? A player states "I'll show you the cards after this hand", then shows different cards because he didn't say which cards he'd show. OMG, what if they crossed their fingers!? There are any number of ways people will find to torture you for putting a rule like that in place.

    Put your big boy pants on and man up. If a player says they'll show and they don't, make a mental note and move on. Just like you would when they bluff you off the pot with rags and throw them face up to rub your nose in it. If you're not yet mentaly tough enough to handle a dishonest poker player, you may not want to play with real money.
     
    #23
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  4. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    Lol way to twist daves words to suit your point.

    No that's stealing. Not deception, learn the difference.

    Bill did nothing wrong. Some might think it's bad form, some people also need to have a teaspoon of cement and htfu.
     
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  5. nhughes

    nhughes Member

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    That's what's done in debating or arguing.

    Theft by deception is still theft. There are forms of deception that are acceptable within the bounds of the game, and others are not. Remember, this was presented as a friendly home game, rather than a casino or poker club. At my home games, your word is your bond.

    Having seen the recent behavior of your professional tennis players, I can understand how that might be different in Oz.

    Oh, and btw, shove that "learn the difference" up your a**.
     
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  6. QuiQuog

    QuiQuog Well-Known Member

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    Post #2 and you're telling others to shove it up their ass? Not off to a great start here.
    There's debate, there's arguing, and there's verbal abuse. Learn the difference.
    Welcome to Chiptalk.
     
    #26
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  7. QuiQuog

    QuiQuog Well-Known Member

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    Your example is stealing, not lying. Big difference. I'm not sure I see any theft by deception anywhere, but if you feel that theft by deception is a no no, then maybe this isn't a good good game for you. Poker is a game of deception.

    But to the point of someone not showing when they said they would, yeah it's probably a dick move among friends, but hardly a banning offence in itself. It's a friendly game after all remember. I think that if it becomes a problem, you'd have to talk to him about it first. There'd also have to be a pattern of offensive behavior in other areas as far as I'm concerned.

    Stealing money? Yeah, ban on first offence.
    Misrepresent your hand? Normal poker behavior.
    Not showing when you said you would? C'mon, don't be a douche. And endless ribbing all night, with everyone promising to show every folded hand and then reneging.
     
    #27
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  8. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    so you debate by making over the top examples that have nothing to do with the OP?

    So if someone asks another player at your game if he has aces and he says yes. But it turns out he was lying to induce a fold he'd be shunned at your game? Our home game is the friendliest I've ever seen, this stuff happens from time to time. We laugh it off, "can't trust anything a poker player tells you at the table"

    Irrelevant, but yeah we think they're wankers also.

    Lol still need to think you need to learn the difference. Or atleast remove the stick from your behind.

    If the example in the op is such a huge issue for you Id suggest you don't play anywhere else ever. "Will you show if I fold" is up there with "you want me to call?" "can you beat XX?" Why anyone would actually tell the truth except for reverse mind f@&king someone I have no idea.
     
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  9. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    we have ettiquate statements that could work here.

    one of them is " Play hard but dont be a di..." CHP TD (me) decides that. Remember my home game is NOT a democracy. However the

    Good games have good leadership.

    Get rules and use em. funny thing is no one has ever read them but it makes the td's job that much easier

    here endeth the lesson
     
    #29
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  10. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    CHP TD, excellent point! I sometimes go back and reread the rules and am surprised at things, but written rules stop a LOT of arguments. This game has been going for years, and the group has it's own informal culture, but as the game has grown, more and more situations are coming up that annoy people, and now I think the leaders are starting to see it hurting the game. I'm not sure why they are so reluctant to just adopt rules.
     
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  11. TTEMD

    TTEMD Well-Known Member

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    Depending on the exact context, this could be anything from friendly gamesmanship to douchebaggery, but it certainly isn't against any usual poker rule. I'm really surprised to see how many consider this a banning offence. Player 1 is stupid to expose his hand, player 2 saw an opportunity and outwitted him (maybe). If you really want a rule for this I'd suggest that your hand is dead if you expose your hand while there is still action pending.
     
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  12. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    TTEMD, you make a good point about where on the scale it falls. Opinions ranged from not-so-friendly gamesmanship to breach of etiquette to breach of rules. Most of those upset about it focused on "he said he would do it, he didn't have to say that, but having said it, he has to follow through." That primarily would be based on the culture of the game, which no doubt it didn't fit in there.

    The group hasn't adopted rules, but both TDA and WSOP have potential rules that might cover it.

    It could fall under the Competitive Integrity clause, WSOP 2015-39A, but not TDA equivalent -- it's probably the equivalent of a house rule. I could have been either soft play (Bill) or chip dumping (Joe). For Bill, why not just go all in and either Joe calls or he doesn't? By saying more when another player has a decision to make, you risk not getting the maximum chips from the guy if you really have it, and if you don't, maybe he signaled Joe who dumped chips. It would be hard to prove there is an agreement between them though, and that's the purpose behind the rules.

    It could fall under Table Talk, WSOP 2015-109; TDA 2015-62. It isn't quite disclosing the contents of a live hand, but hints at it, so it could be interpreted to violate that rule and it doesn't fall under the exceptions since another player still had a decision to make.

    It could fall under Inappropriate Conduct, WSOP 2015-40; TDA 2015-66, though it seems to me to be a bit of a stretch, but those rules allow a lot of discretion to the floor person.

    It could fall under the "best interests of the tournament" clause, WSOP 2015-44; TDA 2015-1.

    No one thought he should be banned, but most thought he should be warned. Several people were upset about it, and 5 other things that came up, though this one brought about the most discussion. However, until they adopt some rules, I pointed out they can't do anything, unless they don't want to invite him back (which would be awkward).

    I was asked how I would handle it in my game. If it happened at my game, I'd just turn his cards over say it comes too close to the line in several areas, but I really don't want to penalize it. Therefore, we'll just expose it and give a warning. Several thought that's what should have been done. So they asked, "Why didn't you just do it?"

    My answer was I had no more authority there than any other player and they have no clear rule against it and no written rules to fall back on.

    As I suspected, there is not a universal rule that everyone agrees to.

    Both WSOP and TDA specifically say a hand exposed early is not dead, but is subject to a penalty.

    There was another instance of that issue, and it also involved Bill. Three players in the hand, and after the turn, Charlie exposed his 3 sevens. I don't know whether it was deliberate or accidental. Bill immediately declared his hand dead. Bill won that hand without showing.

    When that situation was discussed, I said it's not normally a dead hand, it's just subject to penalty. Charlie didn't complain. The third guy folded on the river, so Bill won that one two without showing. You've pointed out that the "not a dead hand" is not clearly a rule either. Players were annoyed Bill came in and sprung that "rule" in his first game. When I asked exactly what the rule is, no one could say for sure.

    It's one more reason they should adopt rules.

    BTW, Bill didn't make it into the money, and generally I think players thought he was nice, though a bit annoying.
     
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  13. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    That's a worse offense than anything else discussed so far. For a tournament director to expose a hand that was not called is grounds for hand breaking.
     
    #33
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  14. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    BG, I think you were up too late when you wrote that.

    For the adults in the room…

    It’s your first time to go to a $40 buy-in tournament. There are 14 players, and you are one of only 2 who doesn’t know everyone else. You quickly learn 3 of those players regularly host games, including this one. You learn 2 others host games on an ad hoc basis.

    After the event described in my first post, the TD turns your cards over and explains he prefers exposing your cards to issuing you a penalty. Maybe you read the rules, but more likely you didn’t. You might not even realize they think you might be cheating or colluding, and sunlight is the best disinfectant.

    You don’t like it, so what do you do? You appeal your case to the powers that be in that game. If you ultimately don’t like the result, you decide not to play at that game again. You keep playing, deciding the best revenge is cashing in.

    You seriously think violence is an answer? OK, but there is no good scenario for you, no matter how angry you might be. There’s a much simpler solution. Don’t antagonize the hosts when you are a guest.

    For the kids in the room…

    First, you won’t be invited back to that game. You are likely to not be invited to any other games by the hosts present. “That guy’s got problems! What’s he gonna do if he takes 2 bad beats in a row?” “I don’t know, but we aren’t finding out at my game.” You might be uninvited to other games you haven’t even thought of. And this might be your best case scenario! After that, it just gets worse.

    Second, you might find he has way more friends than you do present. Even worse, you might try that to a guy who is tougher than you are. Same as #1, only if you are lucky, you just get beat up. If not so lucky, you go to the hospital.

    Third, the police officer in the game may arrest you for disturbing the peace or worse, maybe even assault. You actually do break something, you now have a felony assault for a crime you committed in front of several witnesses. You are going to need a lawyer for that. Acquiring the cheapest criminal defense lawyer I know, you are out $2,000 if he can get it dismissed, and $10,000+ if he doesn’t. If you really hurt the guy, you could be looking at jail for several months, and maybe prison. You won’t have just cause as a defense.

    Fourth, the TD might sue you. Be prepared to spend $20,000 to $200,000 if he’s determined and trying to bankrupt you. That’s just the cost of defending the suit. If he wins a judgment, what kind of assets might you lose?

    Fifth, it could be one or more have their CHL and are carrying. You might be the only guy there who isn’t temporarily deaf. That would be because you are permanently dead.

    Seriously, for $40?
     
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  15. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    LOL
     
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  16. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    A penalty for what? The player broke no rules, and there is no legal precedent for exposing his uncalled hand. TD intends to intentionally break rules by intentionally exposing a player's hand without cause. If it's my hand in question, your TD hand won't be getting near my cards to expose them without a very long and convincing discussion first.

    The rest of your post is pretty much blah-blah-drivel.
     
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  17. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    Let me quote: "Maybe you read the rules, but more likely you didn’t." How do you know you didn't break any rules? And if the dealer has control of the cards, your hand can be exposed.
     
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  18. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    What about bluffing? Semi bluffing? Isn't that deception?
     
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  19. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    A hand placed face up is a tabled hand not a mucked hand this falls under the rule the dealer cannot muck a tabled hand. If the cards a face up they are tabled - no matter where or when they are face up. eg face up in the muck is tabled.

    Now there is also a rule about showing hands before all action is up this does not over rule the tabled hand rule.
     
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  20. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

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    Having read most of the posts, my first inclination remains the same. First. I think it is important to take into consideration the kind of game the O.P. is discussing. In short, a neighborhood game that is not going to appear on ESPN or receive any ink from Card Player Magazine. This isn't a game where you are going to find Daniel Negreanu or Vanessa Selbst sitting at the table.

    That being said: Stocky and BGinGA points are incontrovertible based upon my understanding of TDA's rules; however, those rules are written for serious players of the game, and any condoned actions in a home game reflect directly upon the host.

    As far as I am concerned, the Host is within his right to resolve these kind of issues that border on angling in a professional manner so as to minimize any bitter taste in the mouths of recreational players who are there for the social enjoyment the game provides.

    I would have kept my eyes on Bill's hand to assure that he didn't toss them into the muck pile without showing Joe upon completion of the hand. A lesson to them both.
     
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