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Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by TexRex, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    This came up in a game recently, and became a topic of discussion after the game. The game does not have rules to cover this, but the discussion concerned making or adopting rules. If your game has rules about this, the answers might vary greatly, so I'm not necessarily looking for a right or wrong answer. I'm just going to pass the feedback along to the powers that be.

    ***

    “Bill” and “Joe” (not real names) are the only two players left in the hand. On the river, Joe checked. With a fair amount of talking at the table, Joe thought Bill checked, so he lays his hand face up. Bill look at it and says, “I hadn’t bet yet. This is really unfair to you since I now know what you have. I will show you my cards. But I’m going all in.” Joe doesn’t call. Bill scoops the pot and mucks his hand without showing.

    Should Bill be required to show? Should the dealer or table captain have turned over his cards?

    How would you deal with this? This was a source of discussion the next day. Not everyone sees it the same way, and not everyone who shares the same opinion has the same reasons.
     
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  2. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    The point to this move is to annoy the player. Plain and simple.

    this would NOT be tolerated at my game. Honour and trust are paramount if im going to invite you to my house.

    This man has no honour. Its an instant "off the invite list" for me

    If you cant be trusted to do what you say then "here's your buy in theres the door"

    Bye now

    that is the sort of player im activly trying to discourage comming to my game.

    What a tosser.

    Late thought What tenpercenter said is correct. Its important to have rules and a code of ettoquette to try to stop these situations. its important in home games cause you wnat peole to keep comming.

    the point is he diddnt break a rule he did put your ongoing game at risk. Personally id not be real keen to go back to a game where im beint treated like a dick.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
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  3. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    ^^^This.
     
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  4. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

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    while technically not against the rules this is douchbaggery at its finest. like stated above this is the fastest way to not get invited back.

    now, that being said it depends on the game itself. some games this kind of "table talk" is accepted and even encouraged. but if youre stating it here im sure its not that type of game.
     
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  5. TenPercenter

    TenPercenter Administrator
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    Rex asked me this question personally ("after he promised to show, was he obligated to do so?"), and I answered "Heck no. But it's not a good way to make friends."

    Expanding my answer... NO he's not obligated to show after saying he will. There's no rule in poker that says you must tell the truth (quite the contrary). In fact if you think about it, players manipulate each other in hands a multitude of ways, especially in a tense decision making moment. [Have you ever tried to prject a tell, or a reverse tell, or even flat out said something trying to entice your opponent to act the way you wanted?

    .. part B of my answer is, "He's a dick to do that and would likely end up having the whole table gun for him the rest of the night." There are unsaid courtesies in poker even if they aren't written rules.
     
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  6. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    I believe there is a rule against this. WSOP 2015-109; TDA 2015-62 both prohibit a player from disclosing the value of his hand if another player has a decision to make. Whether his hints do that might be subject to interpretation.

    I did ask several hosts on this, and the majority said "Turn the cards over." That's what I would have done under our rules, and we use the rules cited above. We've added our own clarifying rule to it. I think most think the best penalty is to expose it rather than something else.

    One reason for the rule is to make collusion harder. However, regardless of what my game, the WSOP, or the TDA would do, those rules were not in place for that game.

    I didn't mention here, but did to 10%er, that there were other questionable situations involving "Bill" here. It bothered some at the game, and others thought it wasn't nice, but weren't sure what should happen.

    I hope others will chime in. I'm trying to get that group to adopt some rules, but even if they did, it might not cover this.
     
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  7. TenPercenter

    TenPercenter Administrator
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    Rex you are citing tournament rules. They are far different from cash game. But now that I realize you're probably talking about a tournament, you're correct. With an all in and a call both hands are shown, but not if the other hand is not called yet.

    I don't feel that the TDA rule your citing is referencing a player saying "I'll show you if you fold". I think it is referencing a situation where there's a called all in.
     
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  8. TenPercenter

    TenPercenter Administrator
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    Also, that TDA rule is meant to prohibit intentional exposure of hands. The player that exposed his hand was not aware that there was still action pending.
     
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  9. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    10%er, yes, sorry, I did forget to mention this was in a tournament setting. That would be a crucial fact for people to know.

    I also failed to mention how much talking was going on, and that's what led Joe to think Bill had called. It wasn't very orderly at all. No one had an issue with what Joe did because it was inadvertent, and he suffered for it.
     
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  10. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

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    big difference between cash and tournament.

    as far as rules go that depends on the tournament director. each poker room has their own rules. i know this year on the ept you can you talk to your opponent if you are heads up. in years past you couldnt say anything. so they are constantly changing year to year as things like this happen.
     
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  11. asmarks

    asmarks Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with everyone that this is a very douchey thing to do. A "promise" is just that and needs to be honored. The part about it being "really unfair to you since I now know what you have" is fine. He didn't need to make any promise of showing. Since it is a home game, the host should make a ruling and it should definitely be that if you promise to show you are required to show. Anything short of that opens the door to all sorts of angle -shooting and that is the kind of stuff that makes recreational players (who are typically the fishier players) not want to play anymore.
     
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  12. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    Bill is under no obligation to show his cards, regardless if it's a cash game or tournament setting. He made a valid bet that was not called --- end of hand, end of story. If he wishes to show his cards, he may.... but his statement that he would show is not binding, under any circumstances (unless there is a specific house rule requiring it, which would be pretty stupid imo).

    Players can say/do a lot of things during a poker hand, all designed to get their opponents to perform a desired action during the current battle, or to set the stage for future battles.

    Lying about your hand strength is one of those things. Claiming you will show your cards is also one of those things. So is not showing when you claimed you would. It's called poker, folks..... a game of deception, above all else. Lying and deceiving are integral parts of the game. Always keep 'em guessing about what is the truth, and what is fiction.

    No harm, no foul. Joe was a fool to expose his hand prematurely (and in violation of the rules if done so during a tournament). And he's an even bigger fool if he got upset with Bill when Bill did not show his hand, regardless of what was said during battle. Joe has only reason to be upset with himself..... because 1) he made a major error, and 2) he was outplayed.

    Next deal, please.
     
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  13. asmarks

    asmarks Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree with BGinGA. He "promised" to show his hand. Broken promises are not part of poker and, as in any aspect of life, typically have consequences down the road. Assuming this is a regular home game, such broken promises (or even making any such promises) should not be tolerated.
     
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  14. asmarks

    asmarks Well-Known Member

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    When Bill mucked his winning hand, did Joe complain that Bill did not keep his promise? Bill is lucky Joe didn't punch him out with a move like that.
     
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  15. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    So when a player "promises" that he has the best hand (trying to get the other guy to fold) but it turns out he breaks his promise by showing a bluff attempt instead.... that's not a part of poker, either? Seriously.... that argument is simply ridiculous.

    Poker is about deception, disguising hand strength, and manipulating/fooling/tricking other players into making the decisions YOU want them to make. Anybody who believes anything that is said by an opponent during play is a fool. Nothing wrong with asking questions during play... but taking the answers given as truth is foolish. One should be asking questions not for the answers, but for HOW or WHAT they answer.
     
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  16. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    I think this plays a bigger part in this than the rules itself. It's understanding your audience and playing within the accepted behavioral norms for that particular game.

    If a player's actions are perceived as "questionable" or "sleazy" (even if technically within the rules), other players may decide that they don't want to play with them. And that's not good news for a home game. So, it all depends on the atmosphere of the game.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
  17. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    Asmarks, Joe did not complain. He felt bad about showing his hand early. For the record, this wasn't even discussed until the next day. It was one of about 6 unusual things that came up; 3 of them involved Bill.
     
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  18. nhughes

    nhughes Member

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    Ah, I see. So if during a cash home game, I ask you to break a hundo, and you push me a barrel of fives, and I say thanks and don't give you the hundo, that's OK?

    Not at my *friendly* home games. Promise to show and then muck without showing, and you're never coming back again.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
  19. jjbcentral

    jjbcentral Creativity Alliance

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    Question... In a tournament, isn't a hand considered dead if it is shown before the end of the hand? In which case, it wouldn't matter what was said after the hand was dead??
    My games never played that strict so I'm not positive about that rule. And if someone did that at one of my games, we are all friends and always trying to tilt the others so we'd have laughed it off. Not sure if your game has the same dynamic or strict to the rules.
     
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  20. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    JJ, not by WSOP and TDA rules. The hand is not dead, but subject to a penalty after the hand. The real problem is that game has no real rules, and that led to several problems.
     
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