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Playing Aces UTG

Discussion in 'Cash Game / Ring Game Advice' started by Quads, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    So, we are having this discussion in our group, and I thought it would be fun over here to get some other people's input and thoughts.

    The conversation is in playing aces, coming into the pot with, opening the pot, re-raising, forcing others out, etc.

    Cash Game
    UTG- How much do you open the pot holding A/A?
    You have an average stack at a full table.

    $1/2 NL $100 buy-in - avg stack $150 - You open for ________
    $2/3 NL - 200 buy-in - avg stack $350
    $3/5 NL - No Max Buy-in - avg stack $1,500
    $10/20 NL - NMB - avg stack $4,000
    $25/50 NL NMB - avg stack $10,000
     
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  2. jdunford

    jdunford Donkey hunter
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    At a normal (reasonably tight) table, I open for 3xBB... the lower end of my usual pre-flop raise. Other strong openers (KK, QQ, AK, AQs) I'll open 3-5xBB. The exception is if the table has several loose-agressive players; then I might limp with the intention to re-raise... but I have to be pretty certain someone's going to raise behind me. Otherwise I could find myself up against way too many opponents.
     
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  3. jojobinks

    jojobinks Poker Nerd (and Admin)
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    bottom pair and a flush draw
    some general thoughts
    • the deeper it is, the more likely you should be to limp (first in or deep). implied odds are greater, and so are the reverse IO. deception more important.
    • the less deep, then, the more straightforward you should be
    • besides that, i dunno. 4x is my normal raise in a ring game. but this depends on what's going on in the game, how it's playing, who's in it, and so on
     
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  4. BigWoody

    BigWoody Banned

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    I don't like to get into the habit of doing the same thing everytime with X-X.
    (Whether thats always raising with A-A or always limping with 8-8 ) I like to constantly mix up my game and change gears. If I was UTG with A-A (like the OP says) then I would most likely open for 3 x BB. But, given the right kind of table, I may limp in... but MOST of the time I'm raising 3 x BB.
     
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  5. 99%evil

    99%evil Banned

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    Depends on position and the table. If you're in early position with a LAG table, limp then reraise big (4x raiser's raise min). I'd set myself up early making big raises with anything, middle suited cards and pairs, you don't want to be doing 3x the blinds as your standard raise then suddenly raise 5 or 6x the BB, you'll give away strength. Keep em' guessing by raisin 6x the blinds with 6,7 suited and folding and showing if a paint flop hits. When you do it with aces, you may get someone to push you and then you'll be sittin' pretty. If I'm in late position and I've set up the 6x BB situation, i do it then, hoping to get one caller. Then it's off to the flop...
     
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  6. weak

    weak Well-Known Member
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    sounds good to me. other important things would be my own image and the general aggression level at the table.
     
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  7. A-Ro

    A-Ro Creativity Alliance

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    If nobody has called the BB, I raise 3X. If one caller, 4X. If two or more callers 5X.
     
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  8. 99%evil

    99%evil Banned

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    I hate playing aces against more than one person, so pushing people out is my main concern. Reraising a raise i hope to take it down there or get all-in. I'd like to get all my money in before any cards hit, the texture of the flop can change your play if you see the flop. My preference with aces is to reraise everyone out of the pot and take down a decent little pot or get all my chips in preflop against one person...at least I know I'm getting my money in good at that point, after the flop can be a completely different story.
     
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  9. weak

    weak Well-Known Member
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    you're utg, so you'll have a hard time to figure that out :wink:
     
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  10. drake

    drake Well-Known Member

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    What makes poker so hard is that everything is so situational.

    Example: If I am playing with some donkeys close to the button with big stacks ....I just limp in and hope one of them raises. STRAIGHT OUT OF SUPER SYSEM.:wink:


    Example 2: I'm playing with a bunch of good players and a hard table. Big raise.....maybe 4,5 even 6 times the big blind under the gun. Some good players will put me on Jacks or Queens and either reraise me with AK or even go all in!! Love it when that happens:cool:


    Example 3: Mixed table of donkeys and sharks and I have below average stack under the gun........ 5 minutes of acting....ALL IN



    JMHO,
    Drake
     
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  11. Poboy

    Poboy Well-Known Member

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    2.5-3 when deep, 4x is my standard in not so deep games, with same caveats as jojo.
     
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  12. Irish Se7en

    Irish Se7en Insane Irish
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    3xbb. I had Aces UTG last week (.50/1) raised it to $3. Flop: Qs 6s 9h.

    I raise it to $5 afte the flop, villain reraises me, I push All in, he calls. Flush draw, A/Q , K/Q or a set?

    I had $30 and the villain had $24 to start.
     
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  13. EmptyPocs

    EmptyPocs all chips, no cash
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    hmmm, a set or AQ, what was it?
     
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  14. 99%evil

    99%evil Banned

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    Not knowing the player type hard ot say, but calling the $3 raise then going over the top on that board...if he went all in after your $5 raise I'd say pocket 9's or Q's. But just reraising, then calling all-in, probably As,9s. If he had a set he'd want to push out the draw...which is maybe what his raise is.
     
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  15. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    Here are a few of my thoughts on the topic, playing them UTG, and otherwise.

    The objective I want to achieve with A/A is to narrow the pot down to at most, 3 players, ideally heads up. Always reraise if the action comes to me. If I'm UTG, then open strong. Regardless of the flop, make a strong CB as I did, preflop. If the turn really hurts me, depending on the fabric of the board with straights or flushes, be willing to release the hand (and I have no backdoor draw).

    I'll go broke in a race preflop with aces every time. (IMO) Going broke on the turn or river with aces is a leak in your game.

    If I've got aces and I'm opening the pot, I don't want to win just the blinds. I want to see big pocket pairs, and big connectors come with me to the flop. (KQ, QJ, AK) Thus, $75 is pretty strong to open the pot with in a 3/5-ish NL game, I like to (depending on how the game is playing and the players) somewhere in the 50ish range.) If there is action in front of me, and I'm coming into the pot, I like the price of about 4X to 6X whats in the middle already. This is going to (should) run off the draws, and keep the solid hands with you to see a flop.

    But, all that greatly depends on the table and the players. If I'm anywhere being close to short stacked on the game, or if my preflop action is +/- 50% of my cheques, I'm putting them all in preflop if I think I'll have a customer. If not, then they go in on the flop.

    Just from a 'straight and standard' way of looking at it, nothing nutty about the table, etc. (where as a 2/5 game can play or is playing like a 5/10 or greater game):

    1/2 100 avg stack 150 - Open with ~20 to 25
    2/3 200 avg stack 350 - Open with ~60 to 75
    3/5 NMB avg stack 1,500 - Open with ~150
    10/20 NMB avg stack 4,000 - Open with ~400
    25/50 NMB avg stack 10,000 - Open with ~800 to 1500
     
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  16. A-Ro

    A-Ro Creativity Alliance

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    Yes...so in this situation it would 3X (obviously). :wink:
     
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  17. BigWoody

    BigWoody Banned

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    They aren't good players if they are re-raising an UTG opener with AK in a cash game... period.

    Is this part serious??? Or were you just joking... I sure hope so.
     
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  18. jdunford

    jdunford Donkey hunter
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    Have you ever had callers with that sort of raise? I see your reasons, but in any game I've played, you're just going to steal the blinds with that. Even somebody with KK or AKs is going to think twice when they're essentially getting 1:1 odds from the pot.

    I realize that Quads plays MUCH higher stakes than I do, and that a lot of people here play at casinos much more often than I do, so I may be just inexperienced at high-roller poker. You would'nt have to get called very often to make this a significantly +EV play (well, I guess you'll rarely lose, but usually you'll steal 1.5 BB), but you'd have to have incredible patience because (in my case at least, having gotten AA UTG maybe 3 or 4 times ever) it would take years for it to pay off.
     
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  19. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    In that position, I'm very happy to win the blinds. Opening the pot, (IMO) will clean out the action behind me and the only folks going to the flop will be big PP's or big suited cards, suck as AK, KQ, AQ. Making a substantial raise in later position will either keep the big pp's, or (again) if I don't lose them, I'm OK with taking the limp money in the middle.

    It's really a personal preference type thing in what / how you play different hands. I've slow played them enough times to understand that slow playing aces from just about any position is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
     
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  20. OnTheButton

    OnTheButton Well-Known Member

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    Fold 'em, and wait for a better hand.
    :wink:
     
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