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OPTAH Tourney Ruling Question

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by jbutler16, Oct 16, 2014.

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In the circumstances below, does the already folded player violate OPTAH by speaking?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. No

    21 vote(s)
    87.5%
  1. jbutler16

    jbutler16 Old Man Sweater

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    assume the following: MTT with dedicated dealers and OPTAH (one player to a hand) rule is in effect.

    - the tournament is down to the final 7 or 8 players, all already in the money and blinds are 30k/60k.
    - player 1 shoves for 600k, approximately the average stack.
    - folds around to player 2, second largest stack at table, who shoves for 1.4M, but announces "all in, 2 million." dealer does not count stack or correct player 2.
    - player 3, the big stack and only one who covers player 2 looks at his cards and asks player 2, "2 million?" player 2 answers, "yes." player 3 does not ask the dealer for a count nor does the dealer take it upon himself to count player 2 down.
    - a player who has already folded is aware of player 2's stack size and watches the above exchanges.

    does it violate the OPTAH rule for the player who had folded to now speak up about the true size of player 2's stack?
     
    #1
  2. Gear-X

    Gear-X Well-Known Member
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    No. To me it's similar to RRoP Showdown item 3:

    3. Anyone who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
     
    #2
  3. jbutler16

    jbutler16 Old Man Sweater

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    i would be particularly interested in hearing rationale for anyone voting yes.
     
    #3
  4. Ben

    Ben Lifetime Supporter
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    Saw this on 2+2 - I believe in the situation in question, the big stack had already called 600k, making the difference between the announced and actual bet amount even more relevant and egregious.

    However, I voted yes.

    To me, the folded player has no more ability or qualification to assess the all-in's stack size than the player in the hand. It is not analogous to a pot being awarded incorrectly in that it is very unlikely that the player knows player 2's exact stack size in a factual manner - his take on the size of the stack is (to me) an opinion and not a matter of fact. There may be additional big denom chips invisible to him but known to players 2 and/or 3, or he may be miscounting based on incorrect assumptions of stack heights or bad math. Therefore, for him to interject said opinion at this point in the hand would be inappropriate. If it is anything resembling a close decision and Player 3 has any doubts, he should ask the dealer for an exact count.

    Of course Player 2 is a cheating scumbag for intentionally mis-announcing his stack (a fact which can never be proven, but can certainly be "known" by all given the history of said player,) but there is absolutely no reason for Player 3 to have been "cheatable" in this way either - just ask for a count.
     
    #4
  5. jbutler16

    jbutler16 Old Man Sweater

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    yeah i intentionally left all the other stuff out because i just wanted responses based on the actions of the folded out player, not on the history of player 2.
     
    #5
  6. JoseRijo

    JoseRijo Well-Known Member

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    You voted yes? Are you going to give a penalty to someone who blurts out, "No way do you have two million!"

    Because I could see me being that someone.

    Also, what if the folded player simply says, "I think you should get a count." You think that is an angle?
     
    #6
  7. grandgnu

    grandgnu Well-Known Member

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    I voted no because I recall a rule about players having a duty to "protect the game".

    They aren't saying "you should or shouldn't call" based on "pot odds" or whatever (i.e. not encouraging or discouraging action).

    They are just looking to ensure that an accurate chip count is taken into consideration, given they believe the player announced an incorrect all-in total.
     
    #7
  8. Ben

    Ben Lifetime Supporter
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    The first I would probably not give a penalty to, unless it was a known and repeated OPTAH-violator. At least that statement pertains only and directly to the announced all-in size, which the player reasonably suspects (rightly or wrongly) is incorrect. I would just caution him against such statements in the future.

    "I think you should get a count" should absolutely be a penalty. Any sentence starting with "I think you should..." should never be uttered by someone not in the hand. By this statement, he implies not only that he thinks the announced amount might be incorrect, but also that he feels the player's precise stack size should be a significant factor in the other player's decision, which is a clear violation of OPTAH. No warnings on this one if I am the floor.
     
    #8
  9. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    ^^^ This. The raiser states 2 million, and the amount of chips put into the pot is NOT 2 million. Easy, and falls directly under rule #3 above.

    Potential caller should be asking the dealer the amount of the raise, not the player (although he may have done so for additional 'read' info).

    And fire that dealer, or at least get her/him some training.


    Sorry, Ben, but you got it wrong. Everybody at the table is on the hook for keeping the game square.
     
    #9
  10. bergs

    bergs The Don Rickles of Chiptalk
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    I did this in a tournament at Foxwoods. We were 5 handed, and I was the big stack and folded to a guy who had just shoved after losing a big pot on the last hand. He announced "just over 150K" and had less than 80K in his stack. I don't think he was shooting an angle - he had a pile of chips and really thought he had more than he did, and he wasn't an experienced casino tournament player at all (this was a EPT event @ Foxwoods).

    I quietly said "I don't think he has that much" to the dealer. Another player was tanking (they were HU) and it was at that point that the dealer counted down his stack, the other player called, and the guy who misrepped his stack size lost (he was behind, something like 44 versus TT or like that).

    He glared at me when he got up but I glared right back as I'd folded AQ and would've binked a Q on the flop and basically locked up the win.

    Shame on the dealer, but players have an obligation to speak up.
     
    #10
  11. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    In principle, I agree, and If the tournament is using RRoP, that's correct. However, the TDA rules (link) do not have that clause...at least, not as far as I can see. They do have rule 59 which is close.

    From what I see in there, once the player says "all-in", they are not obligated to provide a count (accurate or otherwise) of their stack size if asked. The player facing the bet could have asked the dealer, but chose not to.

    Under rule 59, I suspect other players commenting on the stack size could be considered providing advise or criticism, but it would depend on the discretion of the TD.
    59: No Disclosure
    Players are obligated to protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
    1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
    2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
    3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
    The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, spectator, or advisor.


    Honestly, if the tournament is following RRoP, then commenting on the player's mis-statement of their stack size is warranted. If the tournament is following the TDA rules, it may not be, depending on if the TD believes the comment fell under the first sentence in rule 59 (protect other players at all times), or if it was giving advice...it would be up to the TD or floor person to assess and decide. And if there are any house rules that apply, they would take precedence.

    I don't think it's clear cut...it all comes down to the rules being followed for that tourney, which were not stated in the OP.
     
    #11
  12. jbutler16

    jbutler16 Old Man Sweater

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    Is there not a broad "these rules will be applied as determined by the TD and shall be interpreted to further the interest of fairness" type clause in the TDA rules or in RRoP? In the absence of an explicit rule for the above circumstance, I would think that sort of provision would militate in favor of a player speaking out when definitively incorrect information has been provided and that information is the basis for another player's decision.
     
    #12
  13. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    For the TDA, it is rule #1 (literally). So, the player speaking up would be taking a risk, as it would depend on how the TD or floor rules in that game.

    But I agree with you...all other things being equal, I would hope the TD / floor rules in favor of the player speaking out.
     
    #13
  14. grandgnu

    grandgnu Well-Known Member

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    Here's the relevant rules under TDA that I found:


    Hmmmm, now I'm thinking Rule #46 may swing this one in Ben's favor. Guess I'm too used to Roberts Rules
     
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  15. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    Personally, I think this is a BS rule:

    46: Accepted Action
    Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by the dealer or players. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from the dealer or players, then places that amount in the pot, the caller is assumed to accept the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all tournament situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.


    So as the caller, it is my responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent's bet before calling. Okay, I'm fine with that -- provided I am allowed to physically count the opponent's chips myself (which I am not).

    However, if I proceed with my decision based on information provided by the opponent (who has every reason to lie to influence my decsion, with no repercussion for doing so), I'm screwed. If I proceed with my decision based on information provided by a tournament official (the dealer) and he is wrong, I'm also screwed.

    Next time somebody moves all-in against me, I'm calling the floor for a count. @#$% what the opponent says his chip count is, and @#$% what the dealer says, too.
     
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  16. grandgnu

    grandgnu Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, it references Rule #1 in regards to the TD's discretion in such situations. While that's no guarantee, it gives you an out, so to speak
     
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  17. JeromyinWV

    JeromyinWV ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    TDA Rule #2 says to speak up if you see a mistake being made. If you shove it in the middle, it is a bet. Once he said all in 2 million, he made a $2 million bet and put $1.4 million in. It was different than asking for a chip count. The action was already made. Back out the all in and make it a bet and call and ask yourself if the scenario would be the same. No one helped the other player. There was no advice on making a call, bet sizing, etc. There was only a correction of the amount. Player 2 should have correct information before making his decision and should have asked the dealer and the dealer should have noticed the discrepancy. If someone bets 1000 and only puts in 500 should you point that out to maintain the integrity of the game or STFU because you are not in the hand? What about if someone forgets to post their blind and you notice after you fold preflop?
     
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  18. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    I missed that. In that case, speaking up is definitely the correct thing to do.
     
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  19. Schmendr1ck

    Schmendr1ck Well-Known Member
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    I don't see this as an OPTAH violation in a tournament, but I might in a cash game. In a tournament, all players have a vested interest in every hand, so a player who keeps quiet here may adversely affect their own equity in the prize pool.

    In my home games, I'm never ever penalizing a player for speaking up like this - cash game or tournament. In a casino tournament, I'd argue against an OPTAH penalty for the reasons stated above. Casino cash game, I'm probably staying silent and making a mental note that one player is an angleshooter or can't count, and the other player doesn't estimate chip stacks well or know to ask the dealer for a count.
     
    #19
  20. BigBlue

    BigBlue Well-Known Member

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    Speaking up to correct that error is fine. Mostly because the player gave incorrect information.

    If player 3 is talking to himself out loud (wrong multiway), and says it looks like he shoved 2M, then keep quiet.

    As far as what to say when speaking... I'm inclined to ask them to count it. Asking if they are sure has already been done. Home Game with dedicated dealers... I think the dealer should be counting it down once Player 3 asks if it's 2M.
     
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