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Mucked or not mucked?

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by dirtydirty00, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. dirtydirty00

    dirtydirty00 Well-Known Member

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    Tournament Play:

    17 players left, 9 players at current table... TOURAMENT IS SELF DEAL, NO DEALERS CALLING ACTION:

    Play folds around to player A in mid position who puts a few chips forward and declares all in quietly. Players sitting near him hear him declare and fold. Folds to the big blind. Small blind thinks everyone folds, so he shows his cards to the big blind as if to give him a walk. BB says "just me?" then throws his cards into the middle of the table.

    People then state that player A was all in. BB states he didn't know because player A didn't speak loudly enough or move his chip onto the felt enough. He says he calls and grabs his two cards off the table (WHICH WERE CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE) BB states he had AA, and flips the two cards which are AA. Clearly he would have never mucked if he known or been alerted to the all in.

    Player A goes ballistic and calls the floor stating the BB mucked his cards and cannot get them. He gathers the chips and is reluctant to let the play continue even though the floor stated if his hand was identifiable he could retrieve it against an all in especially with no dealer and half the table didn't see the all in. Thankfully BB didn't care too much as Player A's stack was miniscule.

    Should BB have been allowed to retrieve his cards from "the muck?"
     
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  2. Dr Lecterr

    Dr Lecterr Well-Known Member

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    Clearly identifiable. They are retrievable for sure
     
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  3. Gear-X

    Gear-X Well-Known Member
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    Yes. For one thing, he didn't outright declare "fold", and for another, they were clearly identifiable.

    Having said that, this part is BS: "BB states he didn't know because player A didn't speak loudly enough or move his chip onto the felt enough."

    If BB isn't paying enough attention to notice an all-in, ESPECIALLY in a self-dealt game, that is not the all-in player's fault.
     
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  4. Jondavid66

    Jondavid66 Lifetime Supporter
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    I run a home tournament every Friday. I allow mucked cards to be retrieved if, as you post, they are readily identifiable. Clearly these were the BB he pulled from the muck. Clearly he wouldn't fold AA. It's a no brainer in my book. His hand is playable and he is now heads up against the raiser.
     
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  5. CaptLego

    CaptLego Super Moderator
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    I'm no stickler for rules, and my games are only low stakes friendly games. This seems like a simple case of miscommunication, which is easily resolved in one of two ways:
    1. BB calls. The hand is easily retrieved.
    Or
    2. Player A's hand is mucked. He didn't clearly communicate his bet, and didn't push his chips.

    I'd go with option 1, since that captures each player's intent.

    I don't see anything nefarious in BB's actions.
     
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  6. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    Teach your dealers to announce action,
     
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  7. Saw2805

    Saw2805 Well-Known Member

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    I might be in the minority here but i would of ruled it dead in my game. Cards that go face down towards the muck are folded regardless of what people may have said. It's easier to keep the rules black and white with my group, it also serves as punishment towards players that don't pay attention.
     
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  8. JohnnyCnote

    JohnnyCnote Well-Known Member

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    In self deal games, players should make an attempt to be clear when announcing action. Speak up dude!

    Our games are low stake friendly games, so no one would have an issue with the BB call
     
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  9. dirtydirty00

    dirtydirty00 Well-Known Member

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    yes, this is how our game is too. except this one player A is usually the only stickler for the rules hardcore. I do understand the rules are the rules, and when theres a dispute you have to default to the rules, but to me it was also a judgment call.

    For sure the BB should have been paying attention, however, all the people at the table, except the people on either side of Player A, didn't know he was all in.


    thanks for the replys guys!
     
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  10. B.C.

    B.C. Well-Known Member
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    Cards are live.
     
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  11. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    I agree. I see no reason to believe the hand is dead.
    - no verbal declaration.
    - cards are identifiable.
    - player acting as the dealer did not muck the cards and push the pot to anyone.

    Cards are live.
     
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  12. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    Ergh....

    painful one here. But i have to get on my soap box again. Sadly for you old timers you know my view here but your problem was NOT the hand. It was a lack of rules.

    what rules do you have? i expect that none is the answer.

    if you have them printed off all you need to do is follow them. Any game, especially friendly games, need them to stay friendly. No rules mean that they are made up on the fly which leads to fights from one person versus another persons set of rules. that is not friendly.

    god i have a guy at my games who never announces his bets or all ins and it annoys me no end, anyway mistakes are made by other players because of this. I put in rule 10a "if Ken doesn't announce his bets and mistakes are made by other players they can retrieve their bets. If its not ken and the bet is announced then the chips committed to the pot must remain as per rule 11"

    Anyway the day came where ken got upset cause someone was the small blind and called but missed kens raise they took half back and folded." Ken said "you cant do that!" and i said the rules allow it. he read the rules and was amazed his name was mentioned in the rules. anyway rules are important. 2 You can make them do things for you if you write them well. and lastly no one will read them BUT when you need them they will be there.

    Aussie Geoff

    CHP 2014 World Champion
     
    #12
    QuickSilver75 likes this.
  13. Gear-X

    Gear-X Well-Known Member
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    Haha, that's awesome :)
     
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  14. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    Hi gear-X

    yeah LOL you can make rules fun and work for you too!
     
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  15. CHP TD

    CHP TD Well-Known Member

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    After reading this i think there is a bigger problem here.

    yes, this is how our game is too. except this one player A is usually the only stickler for the rules hardcore.

    if he is, why push a few chips in then say all in softly? If you know the rules he should know this most basic rule. Sounds like he was being deceptive from the start.

    I am a keen student of body language, tells etc. there is a book out there called "you can read anyone" by David J Lieberman that explains a very similar scenario.

    There is so much wrong with this guys behavior which goes against his basic nature that there is no other conclusion you can make. He was manipulating the rules for a reason.

    to get to understand what is going on you have to ask yourself a few questions.

    1 "Why a guy who is a stickler for the rules go out of his way not follow them?" doesn't make sense to push some chips in then say all in? (Also this could be ruled as a string bet. being a double movement 1 moving some chips, then saying all in.) If your all in - put them ALL IN!

    2 What would he say if someone else did the same thing? ( fun fact - This process is known as normalizing or base-lining.) what would he do normally? Would he be OK with that? Or would he speak up? I suggest he would be upset if someone else did it to him.

    More over, to quote Shakespeare "he doth protest too much".

    Sadly you, and the rules, were manipulated to his ends.

    Aussie Geoff
     
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  16. Bruce M

    Bruce M Well-Known Member

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    To help with issues like this you need to have the most experienced players at the table take turns diff nights full time dealing, that will solve a lot of this. In a friendly game you can let him retrieve cards, but know that this is a violation of the rules. His hand should be dead. In a serious game or for large money it would be. It is his responsibility to know what the action is on the table weather it was soft or not. Secondly, the sb that exposed cards to the BB should have received a penalty/warning for exposing cards while there was still action.
     
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  17. Ronoh

    Ronoh Well-Known Member
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    I disagree with this but really it's like asking how can an ant lift 20 times it's own body weight but root beer floats are still delicious? Is it really the same thing?

    For one, a serious or large money game would more than likely have a competent dealer who would have announced the action. Secondly there are plenty of serious and/or big money games in numerous casinos and each of them have their own house rules on such matters, some of which would declare the easily identifiable hand live.
     
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  18. QuickSilver75

    QuickSilver75 Well-Known Member

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    My home games allow for the easily identifiable rule but with a couple rules:

    1) The dealer is the one who reaches in to retrieve the cards using the players input. Upon doing so the player will declare what he mucked to the dealer using suites if possible.

    2a) if he correctly identifies the cards they are returned face up regardless of impending action. play continues.

    2b) If any card is wrong or mis-identified the cards are dead and deemed unidentifiable. Tough titty..

    Another instance of a dead hand or mucked hand is when a player will attempt to take down a pot by revealing only one card....I personally hate this because it does nothing but impede the game. My house rules are simple. At showdown turn over both cards. No pot is moved until this done.
     
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  19. Bruce M

    Bruce M Well-Known Member

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    Agree at showdown both cards must be shown to claim a pot. When all action is folded to me though I might show one card to develop or strengthen a perception of play style. That is perfectly legal as I did not have to show any cards to claim pot.

    I agree dealer to retrieve cards as well. I generally only allow that because the player mucked from bad information. If they mucked due to ignorance from action on table then tuff, unless newbie then might give warning.
     
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  20. QuickSilver75

    QuickSilver75 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I should have added "at showdown" after all action is over and one hand remains it's entirely up to the player to show or tell. That said if showing is his intention I do not allow flashing only certain players. Show one, show all. Again. That isn't a practice I typically encourage because it does nothing for the game. If it's an agreement prefold then ok. But still, why?
     
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