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Jimmy James and Mr Meaner Heads-up

Discussion in 'ChipTalk Contests and Tournaments' started by Mr Meaner, Jun 16, 2005.

  1. Mr Meaner

    Mr Meaner Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy James I am calling you out to a heads up match. Are you in??

    Alittle background, Jimmy is raggin me on how I run my tourneys
    My response
    Jimmy's Response
    So here's the deal Jimmy, Heads-up freezeout, you name the site and the stakes (I don't want to waste my time with anything less than $50) and well just see whose dick is bigger.

    John
     
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  2. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    Heads up Challenges ....I like it!!
    BTW, I agree with Mr. James with regards to bust outs
     
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  3. panthershutch15

    panthershutch15 Well-Known Member

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    :-o I would like to see a good ol' heads up brawl, just no genitalia.....I also am not a big fan of rebuys, but it is Meaner's tourney so he calls the shots.
     
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  4. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed on all points
     
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  5. boondocker96

    boondocker96 Creativity Alliance

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    The OC, son. Born and Raised.
    rebuys are brutal, but you know what you sign up for if you play in a rebuy tourney.
    and yup, house rules are house rules...dont like it? then get the 'f' out.
     
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  6. R Deckard

    R Deckard Well-Known Member

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    I really don't see the issue with rebuys. There's two ways of looking at them:
    • Gives the fish a way to throw away more money, and gives the good players a chance to recover from a ridiculous suck-out.
    • Gives the good players more ammo to fire at the fish, and gives the fish more chances to suck-out.

    Either way, the point is moot. The only real issue IMHO is that a rebuy tourney is better "marketing", i.e. it seems cheap to play in the beginning, but ends up being more expensive than just the initial buy-in. But a good player already knows that and should be prepared to spend more money.
     
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  7. Wooderson

    Wooderson Well-Known Member

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    Why not use a ruler?
     
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  8. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to disagee with you on this one Deckard. I think rebuys are unfair and make it more difficult for the best player to win. If I'm a decent player and generally don't bust out (or get low enough on chips) before the rebuy period ends, then I am up against players who have had more starting chips than me and even worse I'm faced with potentially having to knock out players more than once. Poker is difficult enough when played straight up, but when you add rebuys all the Yahoo's start to play a very risky game where the luck part tends to bite me in the @ss. In both the tournaments where I've played rebuys, the eventual champ was a guy that I personally busted who rebought and ended up "beating" me by sucking out. Rebuys increase the luck factor or at the very least allow more of an opportunity for luck to win out. I'm cool with Add-ons because everyone has the opportunity to get them but rebuys tilt the scale the wrong way IMO.
     
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  9. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree with you more, Deckard. Your points are dead on. I really don't understand the fuss. Better players should LOVE rebuys. In the long run, the better player is still going to cash more often and when you do cash, that cash out is going to be bigger thanks to all the extra rebuy money added to the pot.

    Fairness has nothing to do with it. It's the rules of the game and they apply to everyone. How is that unfair?

    There's one more BIG reason why I like rebuy tourneys. When I'm hosting an event that will likely last 3-4 hours, I really don't want my guests, some of whom travel and hour or more to be here, to be done in 5 minutes thanks to a bad suckout or some other set of circumstances that knock them out early on. With rebuys, I can ensure that my guests are going to get at least a good hour of gambling in as long as they're willing to potentially pay a little extra for it.

    Even if I were against rebuys, that last point would sway me. I still don't get it though. It also always seems to be the better players I know that don't like the rebuy games. Just seems backwards to me.
     
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  10. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    This is probably the case, but in the short term (2 games) it hasn't worked out for me personally but the "weaker" players have benefited...but that's poker. I'm sure that in the long run my win rate would be about the same in rebuy tourney's as it is in freezouts, but the bottom line for me is that freezeouts promote better play...and I'm more interested in playing in a game with better play than I am in building the pot.

    I'm with you here but I prefer to have a side table/game for the players that bust out and our tourney games don't generally last over 2 hours and we play between 3 - 5 tourney games on poker night. if it's only 1 big game for the entire night, I completely understand the need for rebuys.

    On topic...I'd love to watch this heads up match if it happens online. I think Poker Stars has heads up tables.
     
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  11. Mr Meaner

    Mr Meaner Well-Known Member

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    I am with Rdeckard here

    Let me clarify how I run my Rebuy-Addon Tourneys. They are not unlimited rebuy-addons. You get one rebuy or one Add-on and that's it. to rebuy you have to get below T500 in chips. After the third round of blinds if you have not rebought you can add-on to your stack if you need to.

    In the case of last weekend's tourney 27 people bought in for $160(T2000) and 20 people either rebought or added on for another $80(T2000) to there stack so we ended up with just over $6000 in the prize pool. I managed to get some chips early and did not have to rebuy or addon. So I had only invested the original $160. I ended up winning the tourney for maximum profit. I cashed for $2400.

    I look at it this way, I builds bigger prize pools and allows better players to play a better game in the long run. If you get lucky early in the tourney you have a chance to invest the intial buy-in and cash out the maximum if you make it in the money. If you recieve a couple bad beats early you still have a chance to come back and make a cash if the cards fall fairly.
     
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  12. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    Although I'm not a rebuy fan, I would have no problem at all with your set up as it is well thought out and balanced...now back to business. Where is J. James and does he accept your challenge?
     
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  13. Fins

    Fins Well-Known Member

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    This is a bad thing?

    I'd rather have side games going & no-rebuys but either way works for me. I agree with Deckards & Spiff's comments.

    Definitely let us know any HH challenge details... be fun to watch.
     
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  14. SpaceMonkey

    SpaceMonkey Well-Known Member

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    Whoa. You did a rebuy w/o more money? That must be special host math. :razz:
     
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  15. jojobinks

    jojobinks Poker Nerd (and Admin)
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    one or unlimited, it means nothing to me. the clear bottom line, EV-wise, is that the rebuys will not help the bad players. it gets more money in the prize pool, and that's good for the best players. and that's why i like rebuys. the way i understand it, people's beefs are:

    it seems to somehow break "the rules" of a freezeout
    a weird misunderstanding that it helps the fish

    folks, those two things are wrong. you want the fish to be able to put more money on the table...if you don't...well...do you hate money, or what?
     
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  16. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    I hear ya JoJo, but money is not my motivation for playing poker. All the games I currently play in are filled with guys that, for the most part, have known each other for years. The camaraderie is great!! I'm not in it to break anyone or even build the pot higher. To paraphrase Herman Edwards, "I play to win the game". I even have free games some times and the only reason I truly need to play for stakes is to keep the betting honest. Most people will not play "straight up" if they don't stand to lose something. If money was my motivation I definitely wouldn't play in the chiptalk tourney in place of a local game which has less players who on average are not as good as those here and has a bigger payout. I guess it's - EV as you all say for me to play the chiptalk tourney but I like the exposure to new competition and I wanted to get experience playing in multitable games.
     
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  17. jojobinks

    jojobinks Poker Nerd (and Admin)
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    ky:

    while all you say is true, i'm stil not sure i get why you'd be against rebuys. you've only explained why you aren't for them in the same way i am.

    edit: oops. shoulda taken the time to read, huh?

    the luck factor is not increased...that's my point. tourney's are more luck oriented than cash games. that we can agree on, i suspect, b/c when you're out of chips you're out (and the rising blind thing). by allowing rebuys, we're allowing the fish to lose more. it makes it more like cash games, and less about luck, therefore. fish that rebuy 5 times might have more chance to win the tournament, but they paid 5x what you did to do it. that doesn't seem like an increase in luck to me. it looks like an increase in cost for fishy players.

    you don't play for money, you say. you play for the comraderie. that's another reason to allow rebuys. it's not all that fun for guys that bust out in an hour and then wait 3 hours for the next one to start. and another thing, ky, you might not be concerned about $, but you are clearly concerned about winning. in poker, can we really separate the two things?
    :happy:

    and btw, i'm not a super EV chump either, otherwise why would i play in the ct.net tourny every week? talk about bad game selection...
     
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  18. pager23

    pager23 Well-Known Member

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    Ha Ha! Who's gonna hold it? :laugh: :laugh:
     
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  19. PhilTheThrill14

    PhilTheThrill14 Well-Known Member

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    Rebuys hurt your chances of winning no matter how good you are. In a sense, it increases the number of people (same people, mutliple entries) that are in the tournament. More people, less odds of winning. The question would be if the increase in payout can overcome the decreased chances of winning.

    Do you have a better chance of cashing in a tournament with 30 people or 60 people (assume same # of spots paid)? That's simple - 30 people. Rebuys allow players to buy back in, ultimately adding more players to the tournament. There must be some math to see where the cutoff between +EV and -EV is.

    I don't really like rebuy tournies but I'd play in one if offered - I just like to play cards.
     
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  20. ky70

    ky70 Well-Known Member

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    I love to play poker and win at poker and the money is truly secondary. With that said I do not want to lose money to play the game I love, so my selfish want to win will always be tied to making money...I always intend to "be up" if I will continue to play poker. But I enjoy the game of poker and it has been my personal experience that it is a better quality game when there are no rebuys...and that's what I'm after. I have played games with no money in the middle and had the time of my life and in these free games there was no coming back in once you bust and that improves the quality of play.

    We all play with some guys that the lost of the money is no big deal and consequently does not influence there play and make them play "straight up", but a freezeout rule is the single biggest influence on the style of play at the table.

    There's no rule that says we need to agree or even understand each others positions, but if it's my choice I say it's one strike and you're out!!
     
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