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How would you rule on this in your game...

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by EZMONEYRMJ, Feb 16, 2012.

  1. EZMONEYRMJ

    EZMONEYRMJ Faux Clay Nation

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    We had a hand last night that went to the river with two players. Player A made a bet, Player B was thinking what to do and layed his cards face up without saying anything. If I am correct, I believe the correct interpetation of the rule is that Player B's hand is dead and that there is no call. That is how we ruled on it. Is that a correct ruling or should we have ruled on it differently?
     
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  2. links_slayer

    links_slayer Master of the 3-Putt Par
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    Is this a cash game or a tournament?
     
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  3. Felix

    Felix Well-Known Member

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    I think this depends on the rules your game applies. Personally i would rule the hand dead as well, since the player does it to get an advantage from possible reactions of his opponent. I think it's at least violating the etiquette in a huge degree. But in the casino where i work, the hand is not ruled dead :disappoi:
    A move like that is forbidden, but the hand is still live with all options and the player will get a warning (which actually doesn't matter to most).
     
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  4. EasilyFound

    EasilyFound Well-Known Member

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    This is really up to the house to decide. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with this. Sure it is to get a read, but so what? Why not? But this really is up to the house.

    I think it is important to understand the reason for any rule, not just this rule. You shouldn't assume that for every situation there is a hard and fast rule that everyone uses. Surely such rules exist, but many times there are different rules that can apply and I think it is important for the host/house to decide which rule is best for the game that you are hosting. Understanding the purpose for a rule is, in my mind, more important than knowing "what is the rule" because there are a lot of situations that aren't covered by a rule or there can be nuances or factual variations in a situation. To make an appropriate ruling when one of that situations arises, you need to know the purpose of the rule you are applying.
     
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  5. lanyi

    lanyi Well-Known Member

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    This is the correct rule and ruling a hand dead due to it being exposed in a cash game is wrong IMO.

    Perosnally in cash games when heads up I couldn't care less. In my game when heads up players are free to expose their cards without the hand being ruled dead.
     
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  6. GameShaman

    GameShaman Well-Known Member

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    The hand is definitely live. When heads up, it is perfectly fine to show 1 or both cards to your opponent. Especially in a home game. The reason a lot of casinos/card rooms don't allow it these days is an over paranoid fear of collusion. To me, it has taken an element out of the game. I will always allow showing of 1 or both cards while heads up. It is most definitely not a fold.

    ~Jeff
     
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  7. B.C.

    B.C. Well-Known Member
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    In our game: heads up in a cash game, they can say or do pretty much anything to get a read/call/induce a bet.

    Tournament dead, but I hate tourneys so I could be wrong.
     
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  8. links_slayer

    links_slayer Master of the 3-Putt Par
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    Are you guys telling me that you would answer the same regardless of the answer to this question? I sincerely hope this is not the case.....
     
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  9. Harlequin011

    Harlequin011 Sin City Showdown Host

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    Correct ruling follows the house rule. Is there anything prohibiting this?

    Make a house rule for exposing cards heads up. I like to allow it. I was a the Tournament Director for the first two years of the Cincinnati Reds Community Fund Poker. We had a player do this in the middle of the tourney. Rules state "protect your hand at all times" I DQ'd that hand and WWIII broke out. Rules is rules. Even though I felt it should be allowed. On reflection, I should have given him a warning.
     
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  10. GameShaman

    GameShaman Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If it is heads up and the player wants to get a read and give away free information to the table at the same time, I always allow it. I have no fear of collusion.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  11. tonypap

    tonypap CCGTCC Member
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    My cash games are always loose.....you can pretty much do whatever you want, showing cards, one or both, is always allowed.
     
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  12. PhilTheThrill14

    PhilTheThrill14 Well-Known Member

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    There are very few instances where you should ever rule a hand dead. This is not one of them - unless it is against house rules and he has been warned.

    Drives me crazy when people get "dead hand happy" and want to call hands dead at the drop of a hat.
     
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  13. toonexile

    toonexile Well-Known Member

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    Cash games - live
    Tournament - dead unless heads up as it affects the 'equity' of other players still left in the tournament. Therefore, warning or penalty given etc.
     
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    JohnnyCnote likes this.
  14. links_slayer

    links_slayer Master of the 3-Putt Par
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    Perfect response imo.

    In my pad:

    Cash game: hand is live, anything goes

    Tournament: 1st offense gets you a warning, each time after that your hand is dead
     
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  15. PhilTheThrill14

    PhilTheThrill14 Well-Known Member

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    TDA rule on exposed cards:

    Quote:
    42. Exposing Cards
    A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.



    Dead hands are a silly myth perpetuated by the unknowing.
     
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  16. pokerplayingpisces

    pokerplayingpisces Well-Known Member

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    ^^^^^^Those are the rules at my Casa!!!
     
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  17. Freelancer72

    Freelancer72 Well-Known Member

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    in a cash game, i'd give them a warning. and another warning if they did it again. and another warning if they did it again. and if they did it again, another warning. and so on.

    in a tournament, i'd give them a warning, then if they did it again, 10 minutes on the rail.

    the hand is still live in both situations.
     
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  18. Harlequin011

    Harlequin011 Sin City Showdown Host

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    best interest of the game comes into play here.

    Killing the hand is extreme for giving up more info. It's not like the other guy is put at much of a disadvantage.
     
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  19. EZMONEYRMJ

    EZMONEYRMJ Faux Clay Nation

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    This situation occured during tournament play. Sorry, I should have stated that. The player that did this really didnt have the intent to get a read, I think he was just looking at stalling a bit so he could think through it a little longer. As we started to discuss how that should be ruled, dead or alive, he said he was folding anyways but it did prompt the discussion.

    When we play our cash games, we have always ruled that they are live until acted on or thown into the muck.

    I am sure we will discuss next time on how to rule (for tourneys) on this. We will keep our cash game rule the same as everyone else has stated with the cards still live until acted upon.
     
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  20. bergs

    bergs The Don Rickles of Chiptalk
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    I use local casino (read: Foxwoods) rules whenever possible as alot of the MA/NH folks have played there and are accustomed to it.

    This happens at Foxwoods all the time (at 1/2 at least - now that I think about it, I've never seen someone do this at 2/5 but I know it's allowed).

    I usually start laughing hysterically when the other player flips over their hands and say something like "Whoopsie! I can see your cards". Or "WOW! That's F*CKING AWESOME! Oh. I didn't know you were listening".

    When I've seen it done, it's always been to get a read because I or another player was all-in (HU obv) but it can also be used as an angleshoot. Probably need to be careful of this somehow in your home game if you play with people you don't know really well. Just thinking about a scenario where you shove and I flip my cards over like I called without announcing a call and then you act based on that and flip your hand over. Not cool.

    But to get a read, HU, sure, whatever.
     
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