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Help with two league issues

Discussion in 'Home Game General' started by brains613, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. Trihonda

    Trihonda Well-Known Member

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    My $.02

    Entry fee was forfeit when he failed to show. Again, next time I get a bad beat, I'm going to ask the winning player for my chips back because life (variance) happens... Not!

    His invite back next season was forfeit when he blasted the TD's decision, calling it shady, thus calling the TD's integrity into question. Why would you invite this as s clown back next time? No way!
     
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  2. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    I like BG's idea of a formula-based refund. He put in $140 if I understand correctly. How much did he walk home with? I'd subtract that from the $140. Then I'd try to settle on some formula on the rest.

    Honestly, I'd probably refund him most of the rest. It's not a matter of whether his expectation is reasonable or not. Other players aren't actually hurt by that because they will come out better than if he hadn't played at all.

    Why would I give him most of it as a refund? These kinds of issues, which might seem real clear right now, might not look so good when you have a guy out there badmouthing your game, or refusing to play, or even starting a competing event and going after your players. If you are the first to declare your method, he can beat it if he knows what other players like. The end result is it could hurt your game more to not give the refund than to give it.

    Any game's long term survival is dependent on keeping players coming.

    I think you could easily explain that it's only right that he pay 1/6, and a small portion for the 3 games that went by before he said something. It's also only fair that what he won that night be subtracted from what he paid in. I might offer him a 70% refund of the difference between the $140 and what he won. I'd be willing to negotiate up to 80% (1/6 = about 17%; +1% for each game he said nothing). Explain carefully your formula and why. I'd rather be the bigger guy here and give him no reason to try to hurt your game.

    Like Zombie, I don't like large up-front league fees precisely because life happens. We have a roughly 10% rollover fee for each of our 12 league games (1 per month). Everyone knows that's not refundable, but if things go wrong with a player, I can always say "Since you won't be playing any more, here's your money back." For those with no intention of coming back, they can't really be upset about it. For those who do want to come back, they realize what comes with the refund.

    This year I had one player die, and the spouse of another player died. His wife is not going to continue, so I've lost two players. The girlfriend of the player who died has missed a couple of games. Two other players got in a spat outside of the game and one of them has left. I didn't have control over any of that. None of it is my fault. But I'm out 3 players.

    Players are precious commodities in a poker game, even if it's not a league. So I'd consider doing things so that if possible you don't lose a player, or if you do, he's at least got no legitimate complaint about how it was handled. You will have been more than fair.

    His request may seem unreasonable to you (and many who have responded), but to HIM, it's reasonable. He's the one who can hurt you.

    This isn't about who is right. It's not about believing in a righteous cause. It is about not doing long-term damage to your game. It's kind of like having the right of way against a truck -- you can be dead right! But you are still dead.

    Just so everyone knows, I don't agree with the player or his approach, but this could cost way more than it's worth.
     
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  3. Krafticus

    Krafticus Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I am exhausted at this point, but I wanted to reply.

    I learned this exact same lesson about 5 years ago, when I had essentially the same situation come up. I was pretty ticked off at the situation, and really had a debacle on hand. Pre-paying for league fees causes such an issue when you have someone like this, and there really isn't a fair way to handle this.

    While I understand that this was a pre-pay league, things do happen. This guy sounds like a really tool, and no matter what happens, will probably never step foot in your house again. I guess I am just the guy who sees the right thing to do is give the guy a partial refund. $100/number of games. (so, 100/6, or $17 per game.) I'd give the guy back his $83 with the understanding he is no longer welcome. Then again, I really do believe that you should treat others the way you wanted to be treated. If something came up with one of your regulars and they really couldn't play again after the first game, would you treat them the same way. Maybe I am just old school and just try to find the positive in the situation and move on.

    Now, given that situation, I changed my structure to never have to do the pre-pay option again. I decided that I would just add the fees into the normal buy in. Then again, I do (did) a year long structure, so it worked out ($10 per buy-in over $11 games). even if you do 6 games (which seems so short), you add in $20 per game. Sure, you get an extra $20, but that could also provide a cushion if a player doesn't show up. Payouts would be variable, but in the end, I think it worked better for me.

    tl:dr -- Give him a partial refund, kick him in the nuts, and move on.

    Heck, I don't know what I just wrote. If it doesn't make sense, I'll figure it out another day.

    Mark
     
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  4. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    FWIW, our league structure (pricing and points) has evolved over the last 12 seasons. Currently (and for the last five seasons), it includes a nominal season registration fee ($10), plus a $5/entry rake per event (nine total) which goes to the Championship tournament pool. Everybody who plays pays the season registration fee, whether they join in at the first tournament or at the ninth.

    But the league is structured (awarded points based on performance plus a last-chance event) so that a player who even plays in just one event still has a mathematical chance of making the Championships (a win has a pretty good likelihood of amassing enough points to finish high enough to qualify, or a top-two finish in the last-chance event would also qualify). Championship qualifying players who have less than 50% season participation are required to pony-up their missing extra rake amounts ($10/event or $40 max).

    Works for us. Nobody has ever asked for a refund, or balked at paying the small registration fee, the 9% monthly Championship rake, or the missing rake for low attendance (when required).
     
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  5. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

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    I would guess the situation has already been handled, but if not, I don't think Mr. Head should be punished for placing in the money. IMO, his winning has nothing to do with his request. I think there is a lot of hoop-la being created over the term "shady," especially if Mr. Head doesn't know the host all that well. There is money involved, and maybe he deserves the benefit of doubt.

    I am more bothered by the fact that he is trying to settle the matter through a string of texts. I think that is poor form. IMO, the least you can do if you want to take a hard line, is to give the guy a call. He deserves the courtesy. You can also get a better sense of where a person is coming from when you take time to engage them in actual conversation.

    "Life does happen."

    One member in our league lost his grandfather during our season. He missed two of our bi-monthly games, one to be with his grandfather in the hospital when his health was failing, and one the week of the funeral. Another player got a promotion at work half way through the season which prevented him from participating in the remaining tournaments.

    You can't really cast judgment on a person without knowing for certain their situation. He may have had family in town, or he might have been called out of town for work. You never know, and by not calling, you never will.

    As far as league fees go, I view them as a monetary pledge. I think they work best when they don't exceed your buy-in amount.
     
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  6. EZMONEYRMJ

    EZMONEYRMJ Faux Clay Nation

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    In our league we had a situation where a husband and wife paid there league fees ($100) on the first night looked over the schedule of tournaments and decided that they were not going to be able to make a fair amount of them. They had been in the league for many years and so we refunded them the entire $100.

    Our league is set up for 14 tournaments of $20 entry. The host (it rotates) gets his entry for that night waived and we hold another $20 back which goes to replacing supplies (cards & tables) with the balance going to the end of the year tourament. You have 4 tournaments to get your league fee paid for. Should you cash in any tournament and have not completly paid you league fees, its required that all cash won goes to fullfilling the league fee requirement first and anything left over you get to take. We have 27 league players with the top 10 in points placed at the championship table and the next 10 at the consolation table. All chip stacks for each table is weighted for where you finished in the final standings. We count your best 10 out of 14. This allows for you to miss a couple and not get overly penalized for it.
     
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  7. daschuck77

    daschuck77 Well-Known Member

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    This is getting ridiculous. Now Mr. Head is bringing the issue to our Meetup's discussion board (still not via private call or email) in an attempt to rally member support to his cause. He is currently mentioning some new facts like he is expecting a baby in December (Do the math), money is tight, etc...He NEVER mentioned that to Brains and went straight away with the shady remarks and I want my money back business. This further cements my view that this guy doesn't deserve any kind of refund at all.
     
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  8. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

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    I am still of the opinion that diplomacy is the best solution. I would call and congratulate him on his coming Fatherhood, and offer to refund him half of the league fee. If Brain has plans for a second season, I would offer Mr. Head a credit on the other half. $50 is a relatively small amount, and won't make much of a difference in the size of the pay-outs.

    I don't see any compelling reason for not taking the high road here.
     
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  9. Trihonda

    Trihonda Well-Known Member

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    Precedence



    Really, DH has been rude, and demonstrating very poor etiquette. He paid for a league fee. He paid for a game entry, and did well. He chooses not to participate in the remaining games, and now wants his money back part-way through the season... It was spelled out at the beginning. The TD didn't spring some new shady rule on the players mid season. This guy gets no refund, especially given his behavior...

    If we do this for DH, then we need to be prepared to do this for others.

    Also, why would we want him back next season?
     
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  10. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Mr. Head overreacted after he found out there would be no refund. And you can't say unequivocally that he chose to not play in the other games. If he had no intention of participating, then why did he fork over the $100 in the first place? And I still don't understand why he should be penalized for doing well in the game he did play in. Would you be more sympathetic if he had finished dead last?

    From the way I understood the O.P., there was no clear refund policy spelled out at the start of the season. Seems like we are a little overzealous in assuming the worst about Mr. Head.

    My point is: Why sow the seeds of discontent when there is nothing positive to be gained?

    Solely my opinion.
     
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  11. daschuck77

    daschuck77 Well-Known Member

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    At this point after the latest comments I AM assuming the worst with this guy.

    I think if he didn't wait until the 5th month of a 6 month season to find a refund things would have been much different. If only he had reached out by month 3, I don't think we would be having any problems. Now he is stating even though he was told he would not be refunded that he is going to show up at Brains house where he is also hosting this month's league game 5 of 6 and "the long and short of it" will be taking his money back. The way he has conducted himself not calling him directly, accusing Brains of being shady and then turning around and dropping the "I am having a baby and money is tight" story looking for sympathy from league members...all the while he was playing in another raked 2/5 game in town as recent as a week ago and causing an argument with the host. He is an angle shooting scumbag and If he wants sympathy now, he can go find it in the dictionary betweeh Sh!t and Syphilis.
     
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  12. grandgnu

    grandgnu Well-Known Member

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    Wowza! :stunned:
     
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  13. Trihonda

    Trihonda Well-Known Member

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    For those advocating placating this dude... If you worked at a retail store, I'd say sure... Customer is always right. However, this is a private league...

    The message I'd give him (prior to him showing up for the next game), is to let him know, that he's not entitled to his league entry fee back. It's accounted for in the prize pool.

    However, even those advocating for a refund would argue that he's not entitled for a full refund, because he played a portion of the season. So, lets say the TD is generous and is going to offer a partial refund, he might get $50-70 back? No one is going to advocate he gets a full refund, so he shouldn't expect that in the first place.

    Here's the main message... Is he willing to risk a MAJOR incident by showing up to get the entry fee refunded? He's risking looking even more like a douche, and in the end, is NOT going to get a dime. If he shows up, it will only make his situation worse.

    I would hope the TD lets this guy know this up front, that he will not be bullied into giving a refund. The TD should also notify all the potential players of the potential disturbance, and let them all know the only outcome is for the douche to leave peacefully (without a refund).

    The worse thing for all, would be calling the cops. If the guy decides to make a ruckus, this might be a necessity. However, what is he going to claim? that he is owed a refund for a poker league (is poker legal in your region?)...? He's admitting to gamboling, which could be putting himself in hot water, along with everyone else (but is he willing to go down in flames just to burn the rest?). If the cops are involved, he's certain to have legal fees/fines well in excess of the $100 entry fee... not to mention a reputation as a major DB that got the cops called on a local game... Good luck getting an invite to ANY game in the area...

    I'd spell this stuff out to him, and let him know that it's NOT appropriate for him to come to your house. He will be asked to leave. Again, make sure your other attendees have your back.

    Good luck.. Let us know how it goes.
     
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  14. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

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    Bumpity-Bump.

    How did this end?
     
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  15. lnlver

    lnlver Well-Known Member

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    I would ask him to get a subsitute who would assume his entry. They could work out their own arrangement as to how any winnings would be split between them.
     
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  16. QuiQuog

    QuiQuog Well-Known Member

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    I know this is an old thread, but I would just add my own ¢2.

    I hope you've added a no refund policy to your league rules. If he had not paid that night, but indicated that he wanted to join the league and would pay at the next event he attended, but never returned, would you be demanding his money? I would have refunded him with good tidings that he returned to play in any games he could attend in the future. His situation may change, and he may invite another player sometime. It's not like a refund would have caused everybody to demand a their money back.

    The future of your game doesn't depend on any one persons league fees, it depends on people. Keep your players happy and adjust the rules as you learn from everyone's mistakes and experience.
     
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  17. Bloody Marvellous

    Bloody Marvellous Well-Known Member

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    I know I'm weighing in far too late, and I'm basing my understanding of the situation solely on daschuck's account of the incident.

    As I understand it there were no league rules set up to begin with, other than the fees. Mr. Head paid the fees at the first opportunity, and made a request for a refund when he was certain that he couldn't attend any more games in the rest of the season. In his mind the request was reasonable. After sending a few requests and not getting a response it's pretty normal that he got a bit nervous, but apparently remained civil.

    In my estimation Mr. Head found the response declining to refund his league fee to be curt. He's put considerable effort in describing his situation and motivation in asking for a refund and apologizing for the request, and in response is plainly said "You can't have your money back because I don't want to set a precedent".

    Considering that there were no rules setup at the start of the league, and that the situation described is pretty unambiguous (he paid immediately, and has since been unable to attend and asks for a refund only when there are only two games left in the league of which he knows he won't be able to attend at least one) I think Mr. Head would at least have expected to be able to reach a settlement and not receive an unmotivated decline of his request.

    In this case I think a full refund, a partial refund, or a future compensation (like a discount on, or waiving next year's league fee) would have been warranted. Learn from the mistakes made, and make sure the league rules (and payouts and points formula) are clear from the onset.

    This situation has since been allowed to escalate. Replies like "I'm sorry you feel that way" and "I don't see how that's relevant" without a sufficient explanation or an apology like "I'm really very sorry, but league fees are non-refundable" can be read as "I don't care what you say or think, I'm not paying you your money back". Mr. Head wants to be heard, and nobody's listening, so he's resorted to reaching out to the other players and making threats. He feels he's being unfairly treated (and probably scammed out of his money) and even a full refund at this point won't take away that bitter taste. I'm pretty sure this player will never return, and won't have anything good to say about the league or how this was handled.
     
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