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Determining Placing

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by Marhault, Mar 4, 2015.

  1. Marhault

    Marhault Well-Known Member

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    Ok, my big game is coming up in 3 days and I had a quick question about placing. So far we have 22 coming (gotten way more support than I thought it would!) and I've talked with a few people and they want to pay out 3 places.

    So it will be a $20 buy in, my first question is how would you break down the payouts in the tournament? When we play our smaller game we only pay out first and second and we usually just do double the buy in for 2nd and the rest to 1st.

    My second question is, if we have say 4 people left in the tournament and 2 people are knocked out on one hand at the end, how do you determine who would finish in 3rd and who in 4th? I've never had this situation but I know its a possibility and want to have all my bases covered. I'm familiar with the game ins and outs just not positive about rulings in certain obscure situations such as that. I really don't want anyone to be upset over a ruling on something that might be either wrong or not as confident in that decision as I should be.

    I thank you guys in advance, you've been a wonderful help so far with everything I've had to deal with setting things up and I'm so excited to get things going with this game. I have my stacks already counted out and setup, I even have chips set out and ready for a cash game after the main game. Its starting to really feel like I almost know what I'm doing here! The main thing is I want this to feel as organized and buttoned up as I can so people feel comfortable coming back and knowing that there won't be any shenanigans going on. I know 20 bucks is chump change for most of the people who play on here but for the guys I play with and myself 20 bucks is a decent amount to gamble with that we can feel comfortable losing but we will get a nice bit of folding money if we win. My hope is to eventually be able to pull 20-30 at least once a month.
     
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  2. catalyzeme

    catalyzeme Well-Known Member

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    I think typically if two people go out on the same hand, whoever started the hand with more chips gets the higher placement.

    And I think paying out 10-30% of the players is pretty typical. For a home game I would lean to the higher end of that. I would probably pay 5 or 6 places for a 22 man tourney.
     
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  3. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
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    A common payout for 3 places is 50%/30%/20%. A local favorite used to be 3:2:1 (50%/33%/17%).

    The general rule is that the player who started the hand with more chips gets the higher finish. Thus, if player A started the hand with 7bb and B started the hand with 4.5bb, B finishes fourth and A finishes third.

    Good luck, and more important, have fun!!! :)
     
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  4. steverino

    steverino Well-Known Member

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    For 22 players, our game would pay out 4 places. 40%,30%,20%,10%.
     
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  5. ovo

    ovo World Series Chump
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    I would pay out at least 4 places, maybe 5
     
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  6. Marhault

    Marhault Well-Known Member

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    Our players always want to trend towards higher payouts to less than smaller payouts to more. If most of them had their way it would be winner take all. It took some arm bending to get them to agree to 3 places lol.
     
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  7. stocky

    stocky Well-Known Member
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    We do 60/30/10 split for payouts.
     
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  8. Trihonda

    Trihonda Well-Known Member

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    For three payouts, I'd do 50/30/20 %'s. But id round to the nearest $20 to make it easier. :wink:
     
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  9. TexRex

    TexRex Well-Known Member

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    Several good suggestions here. We pay on a 3/2/1 for 3; 4/3/2/1 for 4; 5/4/3/2/1; for 5; etc. High #s paid out seems to keep more people coming because they can sometimes get in the money. If they think they have no chance of getting in the money, they will quit coming.

    If you are paying 2, 2/1 or 60/40 is common. If you paid 2 at 22 with $440, and I finished second and got $40, I wouldn't be back. If I finished 1st, I wouldn't be back because it's too hard to win to have crazy payouts.

    If you pay several places, you could always give the last payout place his $ back, then do the rest in some formula suggested above.
     
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  10. Marhault

    Marhault Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with high payouts for a limited number of people. You win, you deserve the lions share. Nearly everyone I play with is the same way. Honestly I don't know anyone who isn't that way. I'm not one of those "everyone gets a trophy" guys. You want the money, you win it.
     
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  11. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    I'm with you Mark....and it's the same in my game. The overall consensus is that THE winner gets a pay out that reflects that triumph. The philosophy is "you want it...then go and get it! Get your game up! Quit playing rag hands just to see more flops. If you do in order to gamble...then you got your reward...you gambled. Sometimes you win, most time you don't."

    Most of my players, even in a 32-40 playing field (on a good day), the request for only top 3 pay out is a popular one.

    But as others have mentioned here, for the long-term success and sustainability of the game, I adjust the pay out spots according to the playing field. The most recent tourney I had featured 30 players, to which I paid out 5 spots in a 45/25/15/10/5 allotment. With 30 players, I've seen plenty other hosts pay out up to 6 and even 7 spots with that many players. IMO however, I had to find a balance to where the pay outs weren't so watered down but also not so restricted that made it hard to make the money.

    Once the night is over...I have a few words with those that place and tell them, "See....you made your money back with a lil on top...and you wouldn't have had we kept it to only top 3." I do the same with the other players as they knocked out and hand them their cut while it gets to head-to-head. That night the prize pool got up to just over $1400. To which I paid out (don't remember exactly) $650 for 1st, $350 for 2nd, $220 for 3rd, $150 for 4th and $80 for 5th. This was out of a $20 game with two re-buys/add-ons up to the break. Which, with all things considered, is a pretty darn good pay day for those cashing. All in all, the players came around and understood why I structured it that way and came to have an appreciation. Some new guys cashed and said they'd definitely be back.
     
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  12. BPTDirector

    BPTDirector Creativity Alliance
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    You will find that you won't be able to maintain that large of a game if you don't pay out at least 20% of your players. 3 of 22 is slim pickin's. Sure those 3 win big but after a couple times your crowd will dwindle.

    Paying out one of every 5 players will see even the lucky fish get paid often enough to keep coming back.

    I would pay 4 with 22 players 40/30/20/10% as others have suggested.

    Good luck!!
     
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  13. Marhault

    Marhault Well-Known Member

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    Well we'll see. If all of the people who've told me they will show up actually show we might bump it up to 4 places. I just hate rewarding mediocrity. I've never been a fan of people playing crap hands just to see the flop like Raf said. That's why I much prefer a cash game over a tourney style format because people seem to play less of those shit hands when they're losing or gaining dollar for dollar as opposed to "oh my buyin was 20 bucks who cares if I spend"

    I remember in my dads home games those guys would get run out quick, but they were a little more serious about their poker than I am. I like to keep it casual for the most part. We don't play high stakes so in the end no one is losing much cash, or really gaining much. We play because we enjoy the game, and the strategy and just hanging out really.

    Thanks for the advice though guys, like I said, if all 22 show up (or more) then I will think about bumping up the placing accordingly, as long as I don't get a revolt on my hands from the people I play with the most!
     
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  14. BPTDirector

    BPTDirector Creativity Alliance
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    With 22 players you'll have $440 in the pot and if you pay 40% of that to the winner they would get $176. That's a good payout for first when you only have $20 risked.
     
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  15. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    10-6-3-1 sounds like a reasonable pay-out schedule for your group.

    With 22 players @ $20 buy-in, you are paying 18% of the field:

    1st- $220
    2nd- $130
    3rd- $65
    4th - $25
     
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  16. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

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    What is this 10-6-3-2-1 deal you speak of, BG? I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on it further. I've never seen that been referenced before.
     
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  17. Poker Zombie

    Poker Zombie Well-Known Member

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    Ive never heard of it before, but it looks pretty simple...
    1st = 10 buy ins
    2nd = 6 buy ins
    3rd 3, 4th 2, and 5th breaks even.

    Elegant for a no rebuy structure, and no need to hunt around for change.
     
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  18. Poker Zombie

    Poker Zombie Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I'm in the pay 25-30% of the field category, and I'm not a "everybody gets a trophy" guy either.

    Paying the top 3 only is ok if you are a tough as nails poker player, and 10% is common for casinos, but home games lean more towards the fun aspects of the game. As others have stated, your fan base will dwindle if only the greats get paid out, the good cash rarely, and the fair find the game unbeatable.

    In fact, I think casinos would be closing fewer poker rooms if they followed this advice.
     
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  19. pltrgyst

    pltrgyst Well-Known Member

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    Umm, "10-6-3-1" is not the same as "10-6-3-2-1".

    "10-6-3-1" for other than multiples of 20 buy-ins is 50%, 30%, 15%, 5%.
     
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  20. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

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    The sequence is 10-6-3-1 (no 2 in there). Read on...

    Uh, no. Not based on buy-ins.

    The sequence numbers are applied to the total prize pool amount that is returned to the players -- initial buy-ins, plus re-buys and add-ons (if any), and after deducting hospitality rake and dealer pay (if any).

    The sequence numbers are proportional, and represent additional monies paid to higher positions.

    Most of our events pay 3-1 if two places, 6-3-1 if three places, 10-6-3-1 if four places, and 15-10-6-3-1 if five places. The sequences are valid regardless of the field size to which they are applied (our group typically pays 20-25% of the field).

    For example, the 10-6-3-1 sequence pays the following 'units' relative to finish placement:
    • 4th: +1 unit more than 5th (1 vs 0)
    • 3rd: +2 units more than 4th (3 vs 1)
    • 2nd: +3 units more than 3rd (6 vs 3)
    • 1st: +4 units more than 2nd (10 vs 6)
    Percentages can be easily derived by dividing by the sum of the numbers in the sequence:
    • 3-1 is 75%/25% (divide by 4, the sum of 3+1)
    • 6-3-1 is 60%/30%/10% (divide by 10, the sum of 6+3+1)
    • 10-6-3-1 is 50%/30%/15%/5% (divide by 20)
    • 15-10-6-3-1 is 43%/28.5%/17%/8.5%/3% (divide by 35)
    This method of determining prize distribution provides increasingly more valuable payouts as players finish higher, unlike these flatter and simpler (and not uncommon) payout schedules, which typically award more prize money to lower-finishing positions (at the expense of the higher finishers):
    • 40%-30%-20%-10% (where each pay step is equal: 10%-10%-10%-10% jumps from 5th to 1st)
    • 50%-30%-20% (where pay steps are erratic: 20%-10%-20% jumps from 4th to 1st)
    But note that 6-3-1 (or 60%-30%-10%) has pay steps of 10%-20%-30% from 4th to 1st, making each pay step more valuable than the one before. Same with 10-6-3-1, where the pay steps are 5%-10%-15%-20% increases from 5th to 1st (5th being 0%, and 1st being 50%). Players that are battling for 3rd place are playing for less of a money bump than players battling for 2nd or 1st place.

    An Excel spreadsheet can easily be set up to automatically calculate the payout amounts based on just a few input fields (buy-in amount, number of players, number of places paid). More advanced features such as auto-adjusting the payouts for re-buys, add-ons and rake/dealers are also easily implemented.

    Incidentally, the same concepts can also be applied to determining awarded points for league or series play, where higher finishing positions are awarded more relative points instead of using a flat scale.
     
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