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Calling Without Moving Chips - Mucker Gets Pot

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy General' started by justsomedude, Jul 3, 2015.

  1. justsomedude

    justsomedude Well-Known Member

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    I saw a weird situation unfold at Ameristar last night, and am wondering what you guys think...

    It is down to heads up play, and the river comes... maybe $100 or so in the pot. First player checks, second player goes all in with $47. First player makes a verbal command and turns over his cards. He has a thick accent (English is clearly not his first language). Second player mucks cards as dealer pushes pot towards him (Mr. All In, the mucker). Player one goes absolutely bat shit crazy. "WHAT THE F*CK? I JUST CALLED!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING????"

    Player one, dealer, and myself thought he said "fold" or more specifically... "foll."

    Two players at my end of the table thought he clearly said "call."

    The floor is called, and we all tell our story of what happened. Curiously, one of the guys who was semi-defending the "Caller," added in the following tidbit... "he's been doing this all night long... calling, or saying whatever he's saying, and turning over his cards without moving any chips."

    Other people are saying, "it doesn't matter what he said, you can't win a pot by mucking your hand!"

    Finally, the floor awards the hand to the mucker. The guy who called seemed like he was ready to kill some one. Then the table debated for the next 30 minutes about whether or not it was the right decision. It was pretty evenly split between people saying, "you muck, you lose." And other people saying, "I have no idea what he said, if you're not clear, it's your own fault."

    I didn't really think about it until much later, but maybe that is this guy's gimmick of angle shooting. Using nondescript commands to induce folds, etc.

    Was the floor right in awarding the pot to the mucker?

    PS: For what it's worth, the house asked the mucker what his hand was. He said he had two pair, jacks and kings, (there was a jack and a king on the board and he said he held jack/king in his hand). There were three face down cards in a side muck that we were able to determine, two of which, were his. We turned over all three - there was a six, a jack, and a king. He was a new player who didn't seem like he was lying, who honestly seemed more spooked by the whole event than anything. The caller did pair his ace, but would've lost anyway to the two pair had the hand been played correctly. Good lesson learned for the new guy.
     
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  2. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

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    i have learned this rule the hard way. never muck your cards until the pot is pushed. there are a lot of angle shooters out there. they will hide their cards and all sorts of things. protect your cards at all cost. if your not sure make the dealer ask for your cards.

    now after a couple of drinks, this gets harder and harder. no one will fault you for making sure of the final decision. the dealers make more mistakes than you think.
     
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  3. bordizzle

    bordizzle Well-Known Member

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    always, always, always, always, always be clear and concise at the table... never leave anything open to interpretation... assume that you're dealing with total idiots (often, you are) and leave nothing to chance

    i've seen scenarios like this happen numerous times... the dealer should have stopped everything when the first player mumbled and turned his cards over to verify the player's intentions

    but people wanna get cute and do things their own way and mumble and grumble and shoot angles and make everyone around them conform to the way they wanna do things

    i had one guy (the "mucker") get pissed and leave after he mucked his hand on the river - his opponent said "two pair" as he was about to show his hand... he did have two pair, but (apparently) not what would have been the winning hand... after the mucker noticed that the board had paired (duh) he wanted his cards back because he had a bigger two pair... his defense was the player who said "two pair" misrepresented his hand since the mucker didn't notice that the board had paired (obv the player who pulled the pot didn't misrepresent his hand)

    that guy didn't come back to my game for months

    hahaa! idiots... and they all expect you to give them a break every time they do something stupid that costs them money
     
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  4. DrStrange

    DrStrange Creativity Alliance
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    Ok I am confused. Some guy who can't clearly say fold vs call somehow manages to say, "
    WHAT THE F*CK? I JUST CALLED!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING????" clearly?

    On the other hand, why isn't the guy with two pair tabling his hand hoping to get the $47 he should get if the mumbling guy did call. (and protecting himself from mucking when the mumbling guy's situation is ruled a call + tabled hand.)

    And the dealer needs a KITN too. If he thinks the hand was folded, it should be drug into the muck ASAP before he starts pushing chips. A double KITN for the dealer if this has been happening previously.

    Either player could have been angling or neither of them. The problem could have been avoided by better methods by either player or the dealer. I would be more suspicious of the mumbling guy but there isn't enough data to say one way or the other.

    DrStrange
     
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  5. bowelsnomove

    bowelsnomove Well-Known Member

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    For the guy who didn't actually put his chips and and just flipped the cards over: seems pretty obvious to me that is his gimmick. But, I wasn't there. Moral of the story: don't get flippant at the poker table or anywhere money is involved.
     
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  6. CaptLego

    CaptLego Super Moderator
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    You can certainly muck your cards after winning the pot when you're not called. If that other guy didn't move any chips, and his verbal declaration was not clear, then he didn't call the bet. I'm with the dealer on this one.
    It doesn't matter what the cards were in the muck.
     
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  7. lnlver

    lnlver Well-Known Member

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    I played in a tournament a few months ago. The player to my right said 'all-in' and made no movement with his chips. I asked 'did you go all-in?' because I was slightly confused and the dealer told me what he did. I asked the dealer to have him move his chips into the betting area.

    Another time I was playing and the player to my right made a comment after the flop. There was some confusion as this guy said he said 'jack' and not 'check'. This made no sense whatsoever. It led to a lot of confusion and another player who was in the hand got a little perturbed. I don't remember what else happened, but it must have had something to do with betting out of sequence or similar as the director was called to the table.

    So the lesson is: always be perfectly clear with your intentions.
     
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