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Betting / raising out of turn

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by Devilboy, Apr 28, 2006.

  1. Devilboy

    Devilboy Well-Known Member

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    In a tournament setup - what happens if a player annouces a bet when it's not his turn yet? If I read Robert's rules correctly, it seems like he'll be forced to bet when his turn comes (if, for example, everyone before him checks)

    Is that right?

    Reason I ask is that they Australian Poker League has this stupid idea that this player is then forced to either check, call or fold when his turn comes - he cannot bet or raise. That makes no sense to me. If it was not deliberate then surely the 'fair' thing to do is to allow this person to bet if everyone else checked before him?
     
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  2. _GUN_

    _GUN_ Well-Known Member

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    The first thing is correct. If someone bets out of turn, their chips are pulled from the middle. Then the player in turn has the option to make their play. Everytime I see this come up in a televised game, the player in turn checks as a courtesy to the out-of-turn raiser. I think most pros recognize a bet out of turn as someone with a good hand who is anxious to make a play. I've never seen a penalty given for this.

    Be warned, this donkey I play $5 games with, bets out of turn with 3rd pair and no draws all the time.
     
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  3. _GUN_

    _GUN_ Well-Known Member

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    Only explanation I can offer you on their ruling is that they are Australian and just think that the ruling works for them. I could be wrong.
     
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  4. krw17

    krw17 Well-Known Member

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    "An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed."

    So the way that reads it sounds like if everyone checked in front of him he MAY be forced to stick with his verbal announcement. It seems to leave it up to the tourney director. I would say make them stick to it, because that might have already altered the play of those in front of him. They might have checked because he already declared a raise.
     
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  5. _GUN_

    _GUN_ Well-Known Member

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    yeah, he's right, the declared bet influences the play which is why everyone checks to the raiser.

    It makes sense to me, that if everyone checks to the raiser, then his raise shall be put back in for its original value.
     
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  6. Devilboy

    Devilboy Well-Known Member

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    So you all agree that forcing him to check even though he clearly wants to bet is just silly yea?
     
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  7. krw17

    krw17 Well-Known Member

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    I would say so, moreoever it seems ufair to the people in front of him who checked. They probably did so because he had already announced his intention to bet. This is why I think he should be made to do so. I feel that he has influenced action around him. If he knows that is the rule, he can discourage betting in front of him knowing that he will be forced to check and get to see a free card.
     
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  8. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    I like RRoP, but there is a gray area there.
    In a local room I play in quite a bit, they have a little different rule which I believe works really well for people betting out of turn.

    IF the dealer announces the action, and you are not paying attention, "chips in the pot, stay in the pot". So, those chips that were pushed in out of turn, go into the pot, the action continues, when it gets to you, then you can take appropriate action, (check, fold, bet, raise).

    IF the dealer has not announced the action, they tell the player to simmer down, and that the action is not to him yet. If they player keeps acting out of turn, some of the dealers institute the "chips in the pot, stay in the pot" rule.

    It works really well, and I'm actually thinking of starting to use it for the rare cases where I have that issue in my home game.
     
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  9. Captn_All_In

    Captn_All_In Creativity Alliance

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    Here's a thought for you about this rule: verbal actions out of turn are binding

    Player A is contemplating his action with AA, Player C acts out of turn and says "raise", the dealer tells him its not his turn, player A sees this happens and decides to take advantage of the situation and puts in a hefty 10 x BB bet. Player B folds. Action to Player C, now according to the rule he would have to make his "raise" of the previous bet which was 10 x BB. Which he probably doesn't want to do.:cool:[Insert sinister laugh from player A]:cool:


    I have always dreamed of this situation with some of the fish that play at my game.

    What are you thoughts??

    Captn
     
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  10. krw17

    krw17 Well-Known Member

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    I would consider it swift justice for those who should know better. :happy:

    But on the other end of that argument, this is probably why poker can be intimidating and uninviting to new players trying to learn the game. Maybe this is why Robert's Rules doesn't explicitly say one way or another. I suppose it is up to the setting and up to the "host" of the game.

    If it were my game, I would require that individual to complete his raise if nobody raised in front of him, if not, I would at least make him call. Because he announced a raise already he has announced his intention to play this pot. In your example, someone in between the guy holding AA and the guy betting out of turn may have contemplated calling that raise from the guy holding AA, but maybe he decides to fold because he assumes the guy behind him will play and his odds will be lowered with one more person in the pot.

    I just think that when you make a verbal announcement out of turn it changes the thought process of those around you. And once you make that announcement, you should be held to it somehow. I would not allow the out of turn bettor to fold. Just my thoughts......

    And knowing the guys I play with, my "ruling" would probably be unpopular. But at least I have some reasoning behind it.
     
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  11. compost kid

    compost kid Well-Known Member

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    What do people think of this as a rule.

    Bets out of turn are binding. However, should a prior player raise, the out-of-turn bettor must either call, or fold and forfeit his out-of -turn wager. The out-of-turn bettor is not allowed to re-raise in this situation (small penalty to discourage out-of-turn betting)
     
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    Last edited: May 1, 2006
  12. Captn_All_In

    Captn_All_In Creativity Alliance

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    I believe this is exaclty what Quads was talking about when he said "chips in the pot, stay in the pot."
    I hope that I am interpreting both of you correctly.:)
     
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  13. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    Kind of, but not really.
    The chips in the pot kind of says that. More like "the player betting out of turn losses his chips." regardless of the action. He can still raise if he / she wishes, it will just cost him all the needed chips to raise. As what he put in the pot earlier is dead.

    Regardless of when the action finally does come back around to him, what he put in the pot, out of turn, is dead money.

    If he wishes to call, he needs to put more chips out there, as with a raise, and of course, folding is an option as well.

    It sounds a little harsh at first, but it will kill most anyone who has a bad habit of it. Especially in a medium stakes cash game or to someone in a critical chip spot in a tourney. Take a 15/30 game. It's a $30 mistake each time you do it on fourth and fifth street. That adds up.

    IMO, Not only is it bad form to bet out of turn, whether you are trying to shoot an angle, or just not paying attention, it can also effect the action behind you, which can kill others' action in the hand. (which seems to be the chief point in most cases)
     
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  14. Captn_All_In

    Captn_All_In Creativity Alliance

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    Thanks for clarifying Quads. Yes its sounds harsh, but it gets the point across in a hurry!:happy:

    Thanks Again,

    Captn
     
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  15. Quads

    Quads Creativity Alliance

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    It's hard and fast, and yes, harsh, I guess, but really cures a guy of acting out of turn.
     
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  16. Toothpic

    Toothpic Well-Known Member

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    Ouch! Talk about a harsh rule! No denying that it will have the proper results though.
     
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  17. BigKyle

    BigKyle Well-Known Member

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    I agree this is a rule that needs to be harshly enforced. I have played in a certain home game, usually $40 buyin NLHE tournament or 1/2 NL games, and a pretty regular player that is a flatout jerk has made the following play two or three times against new players when I have been there.

    There is a raise preflop and he calls in position to the raiser. After the flop comes out he checks. The newb bets and then the p.i.t.a. guy makes a reraise. The newb realizes his steal bet on the flop has not worked (probably thinks the guy has a big hand since he called and raised the flop bet) and mucks, and this guy collects an extra post-flop bet to his stack. The host/TD doesn't do anything, heck I don't even think he knows the rule. But if it were my game or if he tried it against me I would dispute his play wholeheartedly.
     
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  18. Devilboy

    Devilboy Well-Known Member

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    Kyle the rules on that are pretty clear - once you announce 'Check' out of turn you can NEVER turn that into a raise. He can only call, check or fold.

    If he's doing this on purpose he is indeed a jerk.
     
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  19. BigKyle

    BigKyle Well-Known Member

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    He is, and he is! I don't think it's my place to say anything unless he does it to me, but I have been thinking about subtly mentioning it to the others.
     
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  20. rolandshoffinc

    rolandshoffinc Well-Known Member

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    I think the player should be taken outside and whipped:shocked:
    Why would you not be paying attention? or
    Why are you trying to take my money.

    To the dogs with you!
     
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