Welcome to the ChipTalk Community

Want to join the rest of the ChipTalk members? It is free to sign up today and unlock new features, discussions, and reduce the advertising.

Sign Up

Beating loose aggressive home games.

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy General' started by naked_eskimo, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. naked_eskimo

    naked_eskimo Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    Sometimes it feels more like surviving loose aggressive home games. I have a game tonight. It's a game I've been playing in for years now and it's one that I find it hard to be a consistent winner in. I've recently decided to become more of a serious student of the game again. Years ago, when I first started to play poker, I read several of the top books back then. Sklasnky, Miller, Lee, etc. Then real life kicked into high gear as I got my first full time professional job, etc. Now years later I have decided to study some more and try to become a better player. I've refreshed my book collection with some new titles, mostly geared towards online, low stakes. I'm enjoying it and my return to online poker is proving to be enjoyable and my win rate in the microstakes ( 2NL, 5NL, 25NL) is getting much better.

    As I was driving to work this morning I pondered how best to approach tonights game. This game is ultra loose. Most of the players range is honestly any two, in any position, for almost any amount preflop. Even post flop play is horrible from most of these guys. They have zero concept of position, bet sizing, odds, you name it. It's not uncommon to have TPTK with something like AK in position and be beat at showdown by a ragged 8,4o two pair.

    My plan is to not play too tight, but to have a solid range for each position. 22+, AQ+ for early position and then add other hands into the range as I approach the button. I'll play suited connectors in position, and include any two broadway cards as well in to the range by the CO or button. I plan on attacking relentlessly if I have position and think I have the best hand or best draw at that time. I will need to bet larger than I have in the past I think to push any small edge I may posses at that time. The variance will suck when villain picks up a crappy two pair because he opened with 8,4o but that is part of the game, I figure.

    The buy-in is $60 - $100, for a .50/$1 NLHE game. I always buy in for $100. There is a fair bit of drinking by most at the table ( not me), so hero calls are common.

    Any other tips or advice that might prove useful in this kind of game?

    Thanks
     
    #1
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
    NanaBanana likes this.
  2. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Houston
    Man...my same predicament. Love to have the bros over for some cards but it's exactly as you describe yours. ATC, any amount, any position. They say they came to gamble after all....and see flops they will, regularly at any cost, even all in...lol. Yes really.

    Overall, I'd say I'm fairly positive in my bankroll when playing with them but the play, the adjustment needed really makes you question your skill and the ability to read the players. It's hilarious just thinking about it. However...it is fun.

    The best I think is to do as you say, stick to a certain range with regard to position...isolate when possible on the flop and go from there. If going to the river....never go to showdown with anything less than a strong two pair....never.

    I think you've got the right idea as to how you're going to approach it. It's how I've come out on top. While you are making an image of being a nit...hey, maybe with all the fun they're having...they won't notice. :razz:
     
    #2
  3. CaptLego

    CaptLego Super Moderator
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    3,077
    Likes Received:
    267
    Sounds similar to my local game. Very loose. We just have a good time. There's not much point in over-thinking it. If everybody sees every showdown, then the best strategy is to be extremely lucky. Beyond that, I just play simple poker:
    1) if you think you've got the best of it: make them pay. Over bet the hell out of it (they'll call)
    2) if you think you're behind: fold.
    That's basically it. I often think my winnings at the end of the night are the money I saved by folding.
     
    #3
  4. naked_eskimo

    naked_eskimo Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    Good advice on both accounts, thank-you.

    Yes, it does seem like luck tends to be the prevailing factor in this particular game. There are, no doubt, many bluffs to be picked off but it's tricky to tell when they play every hand the same way and they play ATC. It tends to feel like one huge guessing game. When you cannot create a reliable range for a player, it's very tough to suss out where you stand in a hand.
     
    #4
  5. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    31
    I would play in position as much as possible. cant stress that enough in an extremely loose passive game.

    Try not to bloat the pots. there will be enough +ev spots throughout the nite. if theyre going to call you down anyways only bet less than half pot on any street. this will help manage the losses the times they do get there on you.

    pay attention to your opponents. if they have been drinking, they will tell you what there cards are more times than not.

    I wouldnt open anything less than TT+, AJs+, AQ+ in early pos. 22- 99 just limp to set mine.

    just my thoughts. hope this helps
     
    #5
  6. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    31
    i also wouldnt worry about you image too much. more often than not people dont pay attention to that all that much.
     
    #6
  7. naked_eskimo

    naked_eskimo Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    Limping to set mine is good advice, I think for this game. I would never do it online, but in this game the default for most players is to limp in. It's very odd. There might be 3 or 4 limpers and then I can make it 5x BB on the button and everyone of them will call. I think perhaps a raise or two once in a while with a small pair might be a good idea to mix it up. These players read every PFR as AK, and then they act accordingly. Any flop with no ace, no broadway cards, they will hammer at it. Hitting a set in that spot is golden.
     
    #7
  8. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    31
    youre correct you need to level yourself in early pos. so a raise every so often is needed.

    but if they will all call a 5x button raise every time, then just raise it 3x or min. you will still get value on every street. and if you wiff the flop, then raise fold is ok. you saved some money for later bets.

    the advise i gave above is for loose passive live games. online is a completly diffrent animal.
     
    #8
  9. DrStrange

    DrStrange Creativity Alliance
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,384
    Likes Received:
    57
    Hero needs to be playing ABC TAG. No fancy plays, few bluffs (once the table proves it will call hero down lightly) and lots of value bets.

    Hero absolutely does want to bloat the pot when he has a good hand. The biggest common errors in this type of game is preflop where someone is risking 5% - 10% of their stack preflop with any two cards vs TAG raising cards. Hero can very profitably play fit fold post flop and feast off of the preflop mistakes.

    Pay attention to SPRs. Hero will commonly have SPRs of three or lower. Hero's game is basically make top pair, bet flop and shove the turn.

    If the table allows limping - do so with speculative hands. If most pots are raised preflop, fold most of the speculative hands unless the table is deep stacked. Avoid bleeding your stack.

    Sharply limit C-betting once Hero finds it doesn't work. Value betting > c-bet bluffing.

    Really, it is that easy -=- DrStrange
     
    #9
    kiva and Raf like this.
  10. naked_eskimo

    naked_eskimo Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    C-betting rarely works. Especially when you miss AK, AQ on a 9 high board. That is just asking to get raised.


    Again, good advice so far. Thanks for chiming in folks. I am always eager to hear others thoughts on home game strategy.
     
    #10
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  11. kiva

    kiva Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    1
    my game is sort of like this (though not quite as nuts). Working on target SPR's and folding speculative hands when the SPR isn't high enough has been a good change for me and preventing leaks. Get that target SPR right, hit flop, bet, shove turn.
     
    #11
  12. phaze12

    phaze12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    31
    just wondering how your nite turned out. what worked and what didnt work for ya.
     
    #12
  13. naked_eskimo

    naked_eskimo Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    The night was pretty low key for me. I was card dead most of the night. I'm talking 9,4o kind of dead. Got KK on the button once, did a nice 3x raise, got a couple of callers. Flop comes Q48 rainbow. Very dry. I bet, get one caller. Turn was another brick, queen on the river. I bet preflop, the flop, and the turn. Got called each time. Queen on the river, I check since that is about the only thing that makes any sense for villain to have. A weak queen. Sure enough, he puts out ( thankfully) a small $5 into a $40 ish pot. I call. He shows me Q5. I'd rather that than me bet $25 or something and get raised.

    The rest of the night was just me trying to get through with suited connectors or the odd bluff. After 6 hours of play, I cased out down $8.
     
    #13
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
  14. Jeff

    Jeff Super Moderator
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,816
    Media:
    3
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    Chicago 'burbs
    I've always heard to tighten up in a loose game and loosen up in a tight game. I've been enjoying SOHE and Omaha and feeling a little more proficient.
     
    #14
  15. TenPercenter

    TenPercenter Administrator
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    12,031
    Likes Received:
    426
    Location:
    Dallas
    Do you feel you basically have to loosen up totally in order to play Omaha? I didnt like it because it seemed like a total drawing game, so loose ruled the thoughts....
     
    #15
  16. Raf

    Raf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Houston
    Had this very game over the weekend while visiting relatives out of town. 4 handed the whole day and night. Easily a 8 hour game. Lasted from about 4 pm to midnight. Constant beer drinking. Made $200.

    I didn't go in with the intent of actually making anything since these guys love to see flops all the way up to 5th street resulting in my premium starting hands getting crushed by the river almost surely. But...what I did was make very large bets post flop so they had to pay dearly to see cards. They hit their draws a few times....but the times it didn't cost them even more. When they did hit and thus cost me, that hit was buffered a great deal given that the times they didn't, I'd take down pretty good sized pots. I wouldn't raise much. But would bet aggressively when I felt I was ahead from the flop going forwad.

    At one point I got up to $280 in profits but a good $80 were lost on them hitting. Overall, felt like it was a great night of poker.

    Oh and one last thing...no chips, only greenbacks as playing cards was done on a whim. We were lucky to even have a paper deck.
     
    #16
  17. ShaggyPE

    ShaggyPE ChipTalk.net Supporter
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Riverside, CA
    To add to Raf's post above. If the villain's play very straight forward you can often bet/fold (if they are willing to raise), check/fold (if they don't bluff often) the rivers when likely draws come in. Worst case you can check/call (if they sometimes bluff) and likely face a smaller bet than if you value bet the river and were behind.

    This will maximize your win by making them pay dearly to draw, and minimize the losses when they catch their hand.
     
    #17
    Raf likes this.
  18. Jeff

    Jeff Super Moderator
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,816
    Media:
    3
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    Chicago 'burbs
    I'm finally getting a better feel for it. The hand values change so much from other games that I'm finally getting to where you can better judge where you are. I've payed a lot of money for lessons, though.
     
    #18
  19. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2006
    Messages:
    12,586
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    388
    Location:
    Iowa
    Not really. Yes, Omaha is a game of draws, nuts, and draws to the nuts, and the nuts will often change on each street. Compared to NLHE, hand values in PLO are very different and hand equities are much closer. HU hands are usually not much worse than 60/40 post-flop unless one of the players is terribad and will get it in with AFC (any four cards). Hand selection and knowing when to dump a hand are so important in Omaha. Variance is greater in PLO than in NLHE when playing deep. Fortunately, because I learned to play Omaha and NLHE at about the same time, I didn't have a lot of NLHE tendencies to overcome. In short, PLO and NLHE are very different games.

    I'm so glad to hear that you've developed a better feel for Omaha, Jeff. Nice that the lessons are paying off. :)
     
    #19

Share This Page