Welcome to the ChipTalk Community

Want to join the rest of the ChipTalk members? It is free to sign up today and unlock new features, discussions, and reduce the advertising.

Sign Up

Another pocket Jacks thread

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy General' started by Mojo1312, Mar 22, 2015.

  1. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,194
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    At the beach
    Setting: A weekly .20/.40 game that Hero sometimes attends. Players usually buy in for $40 to $60. Most are good for at least three buy-ins.

    Villain to Hero's left (the cut-off) is sitting on $400. He always brings a $1,000 with him so he can cover the big stack as the evening progresses. He doesn't raise many hands pre-flop, but of those he is good for a c-bet about 75% of the time. He is down around $100. The button has $80 to $90, and the SB has $130 to $140. The BB is sitting on $400. He is in for over $200. (He embraces variance.)

    Hero is first to act, and limps in with pocket Jacks. He arrived 3 hours late to the game and has doubled his buy-in of $40. The cut off bets $5 on top. The button calls and both of the blinds fold their hands. Hero calls.

    There is $15.60 in the pot.

    The flop: Q of clubs, Q of spades, and 9 of clubs. Action is on Hero.
     
    #1
  2. TenPercenter

    TenPercenter Administrator
    Staff Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    12,031
    Likes Received:
    426
    Location:
    Dallas
    I check. It was a huge PF raise from a guy that seldom raises PF. Button called too, so I have two people behind me that liked their hands PF.

    The only reason to bet is to persuade the villain not to c-bet, so you can perhaps see a cheap turn and take control.

    [sidenote... I wouldn't have limped with JJ in the first place...]
     
    #2
  3. luk_nuts

    luk_nuts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    Media:
    2
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Switzerland
    That is the problem with limp/calling preflop. You get NO information of your opponents hand.
    If we were heads up with the CO, it would make sense to donk lead to take the initiative plus to get information.
    But since we have a cold caller on the BU who will most likely have a pretty strong hand such as AQ, 99-JJ, maybe KQs, we should check and then decide when its back on us.
    If the CO c-bets and BU folds I lean towards calling one off and see what happens on the turn. From there I make my decision on how frequently CO is continuing with his bluffs.

    If the flop gets checked around I bet every turn card thats not an A or a K.

    If u get action from both opponents I lean towards fold on the flop


    In general it would be interesting to know how much BU raises preflop (doesnt raise many hands could be 5-20%, depending on the game)


    Greets
     
    #3
  4. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,194
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    At the beach
    First time Hero has played against the button. He lives an hour away from the game. He rarely made a pre-flop bet last night. (Maybe twice, three times? over a three hour period.)
     
    #4
  5. luk_nuts

    luk_nuts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    Media:
    2
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Sorry, I meant the CO, since he was the one who isoraised your preflop limp

    my bad
     
    #5
  6. TTEMD

    TTEMD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Cincinnati
    Definitely raise PF.

    While I suppose you could throw out a $5 bet here, I'm checking. I want to see what the other two guys do before I start getting in any deeper.
    If there is a bet and a call; I fold
    If the original raiser bets less than the full pot, and the other guy folds; I probably call
    If the original raiser checks and the other guy bets; I fold
     
    #6
  7. BGinGA

    BGinGA Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2006
    Messages:
    9,678
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    No way am I limp/calling five-handed with JJ. At a short table, the CO and Button could have almost anything, including the nut flush or straight draw (or even Q9), and Hero is pretty much clueless about all of it because of the way he played. Based on OP's description, CO likely has something better, but to me, the real threat in this hand is likely to be the player with button position - his range here is wide open to disaster for pocket jacks.

    UTG, I raise/re-raise/fold or limp/re-raise/fold pre-flop for those reasons. However, it's not likely I'd be folding after re-raising, because villain 4- and 5-bets here usually mean business and are pretty rare. I'd expect to either take it down pre-flop or see a flop two-handed.

    Fwiw, I'd be checking that flop if holding a Q, no matter which seat I was in -- so a checked-around flop really means nothing here. Everybody could have air, or everybody could be holding monsters.

    As played, I fire $15-$20 at that flop. I'm either taking it down now before an A or K or 8 or another club shows up on the board, or I'm making the draws pay to see another card. If somebody plays back, I'm folding the jacks - because they either have a Q, 99, or a monster draw. I won't be very happy if one of them just smooth-calls -- I would expect that TT, KK, and AA would just flat, especially if it's the CO (although I'd probably flat there with a Q, too).

    If there is any betting action on the turn, I'm probably not taking this hand any further unless it's a jack. Raising pre-flop would have been so much better, but I'm not giving up on the flop (by checking) just yet. We win a fair number of pots by betting big.
     
    #7
  8. luk_nuts

    luk_nuts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    Media:
    2
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Switzerland
    There is no point in betting big here on the flop.
    They fold all the hands we have beat.
    They call all the hands that have us crushed.
    Im not too worried about JT here because of the action preflop and because we have two blockers.

    So if you wanna donk this flop here, a 50-60% potsize bet will achieve the same thing and will gain us the same information.

    Another play if it goes bet/call after our check, would be to raise and put them both in a dicey spot. They could only continue in the hand with a Q or 99, or maybe the nut flushdraw.
     
    #8
  9. DrStrange

    DrStrange Creativity Alliance
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,384
    Likes Received:
    57
    I am not against the passive preflop play with JJ occasionally. I think raise > limp but in this setting limp/call can be a plausible line.

    I think Hero should bet {small}. Villain is quite likely to c-bet and then hero will again get little information from calling. Maybe Hero has the best hand? If so, the small bet should get the job done. This is a bet/fold line. Hero should fold if facing a raise.

    I fear villain's range if he raises once an hour playing five handed. You are seeing a lot of hands per hour. If Hero is remembering accurately, that implies villain is raising top 3% hands. JJ+, AQs+ AK.

    DrStrange
     
    #9
    luk_nuts likes this.
  10. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,194
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    At the beach
    Unlike the Button, who is a complete unknown, Hero and the Cut-off have played against each other in 14 or 15 tournaments and cash games. The Cut-off usually avoids confrontations with Hero in tournaments, but he is less prone to do so in cash games. He views Hero as a player who is too tight, and/or conservative.

    The Cut-off's pre-flop action can vary. If he is running well, he will raise more frequently. He is down this evening, and hasn't spruced the pot very often pre-flop. His pre-flop raises could indicate a pocket pair, two overs, or even two suited or unsuited connecters.

    Hero checks, the Cut-off bets $20 into a $15.60 pot. Button folds. Action is on Hero who has $75.
     
    #10
  11. DrStrange

    DrStrange Creativity Alliance
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,384
    Likes Received:
    57
    Hero has backed into a situation where he has to turn his hand into a bluff. Hero's options are fold or shove (it would be a $55 raise into a $55.60 pot). Note the RIO risk - hero wins $35.60 when villain folds and loses an extra $75 when things go wrong. Hero has to be right about the shove two times in three to break even.

    I'd need rock solid villain reads due to the one-sided risk before I'd bluff here. I need to be somewhat confident that the villain would consider folding KK or AA OR that villain would call with AK some of the times.

    DrStrange

    PS hero can also flat now and jam the turn
     
    #11
  12. Mojo1312

    Mojo1312 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,194
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    At the beach
    Hero's is playing heads up against the Villain who raised pre-flop now that the other player has folded. We have Q,Q,9 on the board. Villain could be playing K,Q or A,Q, or possibly an over pair to Hero's pocket Jacks. Villain could also be afraid of a flush draw or straight draw.

    Hero is essentially pot committed if he calls and avoids an over card on the turn. Overall, he is not disappointed with the flop.

    Hero calls. The turn card is the ten of diamonds.
     
    #12

Share This Page