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Accidental muck...

Discussion in 'Home Poker Rules' started by marksband, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. marksband

    marksband Well-Known Member

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    I'm playing at my local poker club, 18 players from the start and we're about 5 or 6 left.

    This hand I'm in late position, on the button iirc. UTG raises about 2,5 x BB, one caller, I have A 9 of diamonds. I call. About 12-14000 in the pot.

    Flop comes Q 9 9. Preflop raiser bets 5000. First caller folds, and I'm about to decide whether to call or raise when UTG player mucks his hand thinking he won it and not realising I was still in it.

    Realising he made a mistake by mucking his hand, he takes back the bet of 5000. He is saying the pot is mine, but the 5000 is still his since I didn't call. Well I didn't exactly get the chance, did I?! This is also the way it was ruled.

    I'm not sure I completely agree with this ruling, but I'd like you guys opinion.
     
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  2. CaptLego

    CaptLego Super Moderator
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    I'd rule that he put 5000 in the pot, and then folded. If you call the bet, the pot is yours.
    But I'll be interested in hearing more "official" rulings.
     
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  3. BPTDirector

    BPTDirector Creativity Alliance
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    5000 stays in the pot. Once a bet is declared it is binding.

    No other ruling would be correct.

    I've played places where if a chip is out in front of your hole cards it is considered a bet.
     
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  4. Matthew

    Matthew Super Moderator
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    There was action on his 5000 bet - "first caller folds" then he mucked not realizing you were still in the hand. The 5000 must stay in. If his cards can be retrieved, he should get his cards back and then respond to your action. If they can't be retrieved, his mistake but his bet was acted on and needs to stay.
     
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  5. marksband

    marksband Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought. Thanks guys.
     
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  6. Rome

    Rome Well-Known Member

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    Where I play, it would matter not if his cards could be retrieved. If they touch the muck, they are dead. Period. His 5000 stays in the pot and you win it all. They screwed up.
     
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  7. abby99

    abby99 Admin / Chip Magpie
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    I think this is the best solution. Then again, I don't play in a room (mine or any other) where the muck has magical properties. If his cards are identifiable, he gets them back.
     
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  8. slisk250

    slisk250 Well-Known Member

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    This is how we play it. As soon as yours cards touch the muck, you are finished.
     
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  9. CdnBeerLover

    CdnBeerLover ChipTalk.net Supporter
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    ^^^^This.
     
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  10. Jeff

    Jeff Super Moderator
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    this
     
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  11. ChaosRock

    ChaosRock Well-Known Member

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    ^^^^ I "fourth" that... This is also how I would rule...

    However I do feel that's being a bit too lenient on the 'mucker'... Imo, the act of mucking should be enough to consider his hand dead whether his hand is retrievable or not... The reason is that the 'mucker' can get a read on the 'tanker' if he knows he can get his cards back after mucking... I know 99% of the time it would be a mistake, but the rules are there also for the possible 1% angle shooting... If declaring his hand dead is too harsh, maybe a one round penalty or something alike...

    Do I do that? No, I do not... My games are friendly game and everyone is cool the way the rule is...
     
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  12. BigBlue

    BigBlue Well-Known Member

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    Poker shouldn't be 'gotcha'. If a player makes a bet, a retrievable hand should be live, even if it touches the muck. Maybe more likely, in a self dealt game, the muck isn't quite as neat/organized and cards tossed into the center are easily confused.

    I rule retrievable cards are live.

    If not, I do like keeping the original bet in the pot.

    Sure, it creates some possible angles for chip dumping, but at least gets rid of the angle for bluff/muck freerolling.
     
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  13. Bloody Marvellous

    Bloody Marvellous Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the 5,000 should stay in the pot since the player made the mistake.

    Had the dealer accidentally mucked the hand then it would be a different story. In that case the last amount called by the player stays in the pot, so he would get his last bet of 5,000 chips back, and the remaining player(s) wins the pot or continue the hand.

    Of course the dealer should protect the muckpile, and not allow a player to throw his cards in there. However, the dealer may have been tending the pot or other bets which opened up the muckpile. Still, as BigBlue said, if the hand is retrievable, the hand should be played out.
     
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  14. TTEMD

    TTEMD Well-Known Member

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    I played in a game with the same rule and it was harshly enforced to the point that it didn't matter if the cards were face up.

    That lead to this story. New player flops a set of aces, wins a nice pot and tables his hand with a flourish onto the mucked cards - ruled a dead hand, he loses pot.

    Next hand, he has another winner, he flips his cards over, a stray bit of wind from a nearby fan catches them and they hit the muck again. 0/2.
     
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  15. QuiQuog

    QuiQuog Well-Known Member

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    That's brutal. I would say that he won the hands. The cards were face up on the table before they hit the muck. He wins as soon as he tables the winning hand, that they go into the muck immediately after is just the order of the game. Call, show hand, muck.
     
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  16. Trihonda

    Trihonda Well-Known Member

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    That's complete BS IMHO... Hands tabled face up should ALWAYS play, even if they touch the much.
     
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  17. pltrgyst

    pltrgyst Well-Known Member

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    That's what I call a crooked game, where the integrity of the game doesn't matter. IMO, anyone who plays there is a sucker and a fool.
     
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  18. Couga

    Couga Creativity Alliance

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    This actually happened to me. I won a hand tabled my cards face up and one of the cards touched the muck. My hand was ruled dead... at Kenmore Lanes. One of the reasons I couldn't get behind that Chiproom sale.
     
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  19. Bruce M

    Bruce M Well-Known Member

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    The 5k is in the pot regardless. (95% of casinos would declare hand dead as well, I've seen this happen in casino many times) in a friendly game I might let him have cards back once with a warning. After that if cards touch muck they are dead.

    The ONLY exception to this rule is if player mucked from incorrect information. Like a person miss calling a hand saying I have flush when he does not. Then the dealer if he can retrieve cards from the muck is allowed to do so.
     
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