[Murf]

Blinds 50/100, 300 or so players remain in a Freeroll where top 100 pay. I'm sitting 6530 on the CO. Folds to CO+1 (3k) who calls, I call blind with A 4 , Button (10k) calls, SB (4k) calls, BB (4k) checks.

Flop: 4 7 2

SB checks, BB bets T100, calls to SB who folds.

I had middle pair with top kicker, called the min raise in hopes of catching an A or a 4 on the turn.

Turn: 4

BB bets T100, CO calls, I raise to T600, Button calls, BB folds, CO+1 calls.

Now this is where I'm a little shakey about my play. In hindsight, a T500 raise would not be enough to throw off a draw, and with two possible flush draws, I probably should have raised more. If they had two hearts or two diamonds in their hand, they were getting better then 3 to 1({52-[2 cards x 10 players+4 cards dealt]}/ 9 left) to make their flush and better then 3 to 1 to call (500 into 1600), and with the chance of making a strong hand and getting more chips out of me, I made it too easy of a call.

River: K

BB checks, I raise to T1,000, Button raises to T2,500, BB folds, I push for another T4,730, Button calls.

Now that river is what I was afraid of. In a Freeroll like this, a large stack will take those odds and draw to their flush most of the time, but I felt I was already committed to go to showdown, and instead of committing a third of my stack on a call, I raised. A raise might push off a smaller flush (something like a 56 who had an open-ended straight draw and a runner-runner flush draw), and with no raises before the flop, I didn't put anyone on something like a A Q, and I didn't put him on something like a Q 9. With a third of my chips already committed, I felt pushing was the only thing to do.

I'll add the results later, but until then, comments?



And sorry for not using the hand converter, but the hand information doesn't come in the same format at Betfred.

[hachkc]

The 500 raise after turn was definitely too small. I probably would have gone 1000, any callers at this point probably have good hands or strong draws (AQJ hi flush or OE str8 for the SB/BB) opportunities. It might even force out some of the weaker draws, if any. The big unknown here is how has everyone else at the table been playing so far (tight, loose, etc) especially the Button.

[Murf]

Sorry about that, I rushed through that post a little much. Button moved to the table 5 or 10 hands ago, only played two pots. Button won a pot with a flop raise which got two folds, and won the other pot at showdown with a pair of Aces. The rest of the table has been playing fairly weak tight with most pots able to be picked up by a 600 raise or so on the flop, and I had an aggressive image.

[coyote]

I don't think you're pushing a small flush out nearly enough to make the push correct... You're push after a raise when the flush hits is pretty much just throwing good money after bad.

The only time you're getting called on your push is when you're beat, and like I said, I don't think you're making the better hand fold enough to make that play right.

Call the raise and save your 4730.


edited bold

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by coyote

I don't think you're pushing a small flush out nearly enough to make the push correct... You're push after a raise when the flush hits is pretty much just throwing good money after bad.

The only time you're getting called on your push is when you're beat, and like I said, I don't think you're making the better hand enough to make that play right.

Call the raise and save your 4730.

good answer. and how could you possibly be committed to a showdown? you've got 800 of your 5500 that you started with in the pot. that's not a pot-committing number.

you know it's probably a flush draw you're up against. what i do on this river is decide how much i'd call...then either bet that and fold to a raise, or check and call that much but not more.

and what you had here is middle trips, which is considerably weaker than middle set. in this case, you could be drawing dead to a boat.

in a mtt, this raise on the end seems unnecessarily risky. you may have been right in this case, but it's too likely you're beaten for me to make this move.

[Murf]

I wasn't pushing there to get called, I was hoping to be pushing out a small flush and take the pot right there. My biggest error was the small turn raise. If I had raised to something like 1k, and gotten a call, I would have expected a high flush draw, and could have saved myself from betting 1k on the river. The push on the river was probably a mistake too, but I felt that another 4k+ bet would get him to fold the small flush I had put him on.


Button had A Q ... something I would have expected a raise preflop with.

[Murf]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

good answer. and how could you possibly be committed to a showdown? you've got 800 of your 5500 that you started with in the pot. that's not a pot-committing number.

you know it's probably a flush draw you're up against. what i do on this river is decide how much i'd call...then either bet that and fold to a raise, or check and call that much but not more.

and what you had here is middle trips, which is considerably weaker than middle set. in this case, you could be drawing dead to a boat.

in a mtt, this raise on the end seems unnecessarily risky. you may have been right in this case, but it's too likely you're beaten for me to make this move.

Jojo, I had 1800 in the pot of my starting 6500 when he raised me, and at the time I didn't feel like I could get away from it. I should have, I know that now, but at the time I just couldn't lay it down. The reason for my raise is the same as I've said before... I felt he had a small flush I could make him fold with that large of a raise.

So the general consensus seems to be raise about 1k on the turn (rather then 500), and then bet about 1,000 or 1,500 on the river, and fold to a raise? That seems to me like it would have been better then what I actually did, and that is the kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks guys

[vrecksler]

Aside from what was already stated, I also do not like a call on the flop. With rags like that I cannot imagine anyone having much of a hand, and the BB betting out does not show any real strength in my mind...to me it comes across as a poor drawing hand. If they had top pair, an overpair, even two big diamonds a larger raise would be expected but the weak bet almost seems like a fish bet or an attempt to discourage someone from raising.

With middle pair on any flop I want to see where I stand. In his hand with 2 diamonds out there, you definitely do not want to just call a weak bet you want to raise and indicate you have something. Just calling is sweetening the pot odds and encouraging more callers, exactly what you do not want with a weak hand and weak redraws. Showing strength will either thin the field, or at the very least make everyone else aware and when the board pairs you come out firing (or check-raise) and try and take the pot there.

Of course in a freeroll you will find no shortage of people willing to go to the river on a flush draw, but with a big bet on the flop you probably would not have to worry about anyone hitting their backdoor flush draw with the second heart came up because not many will pay for the chances of hitting a runner-runner flush.

Other than that I would have called on the river after you were re-raised. If you are beat, you are beat and in my mind the pot was big enough and there is no sense risking being eliminated on that hand, especially considering it was clear the button was not going away.

Results! Did your trips survive or did the buttom make their flush?

[Murf]

Button made flush with A Q .. suprised me with no preflop raise with that hand, which is one of the reasons I put him on a foldable small flush.

Thanks again for the advice guys, it's easier to learn from a hand when you get comments from outsiders.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by "Murf

Jojo, I had 1800 in the pot of my starting 6500 when he raised me, and at the time I didn't feel like I could get away from it. I should have, I know that now, but at the time I just couldn't lay it down. The reason for my raise is the same as I've said before... I felt he had a small flush I could make him fold with that large of a raise.

So the general consensus seems to be raise about 1k on the turn (rather then 500), and then bet about 1,000 or 1,500 on the river, and fold to a raise? That seems to me like it would have been better then what I actually did, and that is the kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks guys

No problem Murf. I do think you need to reevaluate your feeling (if you still feel that way) that a small flush will fold to the rereaise. I feel this is not true, ESPECIALLY because you are in a free roll where there is no vested interest. Most players are not there to make big phil helmuth type laydowns. They are there to gamble and maybe win the big prize, whatever that may be.