Did I make the right call?

daveyboy · #1 (**permalink**) 07-19-2005, 08:53 PM

The tournament had 1650 players to start with and my 13K in chips was just under the average amount of all players. I finished in 156th place. Did I make the right call or should I have expected he would have a higher 2 pair?

Tournament #10124294, Hold'em No Limit -
Level X (400/800) - 2005/07/19 - 21:40:05 (ET)
Table '10124294 111' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: jmahan22 (14342 in chips)
Seat 2: Mojo7559 (36502 in chips)
Seat 3: Eagleguard (25815 in chips)
Seat 4: EFMB00 (24871 in chips)
Seat 5: Uncle40 (10095 in chips)
Seat 6: PlayaPlz (8396 in chips)
Seat 7: Patmyne1 (15645 in chips)
Seat 8: daveyboy808 (13131 in chips)
Seat 9: Rudy728 (8587 in chips) is sitting out
jmahan22: posts the ante 50
Mojo7559: posts the ante 50
Eagleguard: posts the ante 50
EFMB00: posts the ante 50
Uncle40: posts the ante 50
PlayaPlz: posts the ante 50
Patmyne1: posts the ante 50
daveyboy808: posts the ante 50
Rudy728: posts the ante 50
daveyboy808: posts small blind 400
Rudy728: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to daveyboy808 [8c 9d]jmahan22: folds
Mojo7559: folds
Eagleguard: folds
EFMB00: calls 800
Uncle40: calls 800
PlayaPlz: folds
Patmyne1: folds
daveyboy808: calls 400
Rudy728: folds
*** FLOP *** [8d 9s Kd]
daveyboy808: checks
EFMB00: bets 4800
Uncle40: folds
daveyboy808: calls 4800
*** TURN *** [8d 9s Kd] [4c]
daveyboy808: checks
EFMB00: bets 8000
daveyboy808: calls 7481 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [8d 9s Kd 4c] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
daveyboy808: shows [8c 9d] (two pair, Nines and Eights)EFMB00: shows [Kh 8h] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
EFMB00 collected 28212 from pot

yeltzen · #2 (**permalink**) 07-19-2005, 09:06 PM

Yeah, you made the right call, hard to put him on a better two pair, but there was no reason to call that flop bet, you should have put all the money in there in case he was on a draw. I hate calling all in, I wanna be the one forcing the other to make the decision.

SpaceMonkey · #3 (**permalink**) 07-19-2005, 10:38 PM

Yeah, I'd also prefer you check-raising all in. Not check-calling the flop. Especially with 2 opponents.

SpeakEasy · #4 (**permalink**) 07-19-2005, 11:26 PM

Interesting question you pose: "Did I make the right call?" A better question would be: "Did I play this flop correctly?"

Check-calling that flop is fairly weak. If you bet the flop with maybe half the pot, and get raised, that might be your best chance to get away from this hand. A raise after you lead on the flop might mean:
1. King with decent kicker
1. flush draw
3. straight draw
4. set
5. better two pair.
There's just a huge range of hands here that might raise if you lead on the flop, and your response would depend on your read of the opponent and the size of his raise.

As played, I think you still might get away from this, depending on your read. The pot is 3650, and he bets 4800. Why would he overbet so much? Answer: To scare away the flush and straight draws because he flopped a BIG hand. What's a big hand here?
1. AK (not likely - no PF raise)
2. Two pair
3. Set

Most reasonable players are not going to make this overbet with a straight or flush draw. We can rule out a set of kings, because that would also be a PF raise. Would he just call with 99 or 88? Maybe. Another factor is that he's a fairly big stack, so he's not short on chips and therefore pressured to play this pot out of desperation. From my experience, a big overbet on the flop means something, and in this case the best read is that he flopped something big that he is protecting. I can't see such a big overbet from a king with a kicker lower than an ace or just a pair of eights or nines. So, assigning some meaning to the overbet, there's probably nothing that you can beat that would lead to a big overbet. You're way behind a set, and you also can't beat any other two pair.

daveyboy · #5 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

As played, I think you're doomed.

I think I was doomed no matter what I did. I was unlucky enough to be able to limp in with my 8,9. I wanted to slow play the 2 pair after the flop, so I just called thinking I had the best hand and hoping he had a K with a high kicker and I could get him to commit more chips. I checked after the 4th in hopes of making him think I was weak with a K with a low kicker or I was on a flush draw and did not hit my diamond. He was betting very aggressively the whole game, so I knew that he would put in a bet or may even put in an overbet to try to scare me away. My intent was to go all-in no matter what he did. No matter what path I choose, he would have put me all in before the flop, after the flop, or after the 4th. Either way, I unlucky by being able to limp in with my 8,9.

tri-lam · #6 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 01:24 AM

Doyle Brunson once said that he refuses to go broke in an unraised pot (or something to that effect.) I think a check raise would have given you the information you needed in that hand. Maybe not, if your intent was to go all-in anyway it went down. If he then calls your check raise or comes back over the top, you should then evaluate the situation more closely (especially being close to an average stack at that point. Playing the two pair wasn't the mistake, it was check/calling off your whole satck that was. I realize that that is sort of what you wanted him to do, but a bet or raise on the flop or turn would have allowed you to possibly get away from the hand. Then again, what do I know?

daveyboy · #7 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tri-lam

I think a check raise would have given you the information you needed in that hand. Maybe not, if your intent was to go all-in anyway it went down.

Yes, I was intent on going all-in no matter what he did at that point. I was not looking for any more information (that's probably my mistake), I was trying to slow play him knowing that he was an agressive player. I put him on either having a K or maybe he was trying to buy the pot with a call that would put me all-in after I checked. That overbet was almost 2x the amount of the previous bet which might have made me fold if I had a king with a low kicker.

Oh well, lucky it was only a $3 buy-in.

dad604 · #8 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 02:18 AM

I would have gone allin on the flop with 2 pairs. It would have the same results in this case.

Don't think I would have call the raise preflop but once the flop hit, I would have been doomed.

shadesofgrey · #9 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 04:05 AM

20/20 hindsight - solid hand on the flop. i would have moved in faster to prevent a suckout. however, the villian had a hand- & i would still have pushed with two pair on the flop.. i suspect he would have called. this is online poker !!

Given 13k vs. EFMB00 collected 28212 from pot

lock horns - it happens. you still played it "right"... whatever that is. but most of the time aggression is rewarded - u lost.

i've seen worse

did you finish in the money -- lmao... sorry dude. been there done that / still do it.

shadesofgrey · #10 (**permalink**) 07-20-2005, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

Interesting question you pose: "Did I make the right call?" A better question would be: "Did I play this flop correctly?"

Check-calling that flop is fairly weak. If you bet the flop with maybe half the pot, and get raised, that might be your best chance to get away from this hand. A raise after you lead on the flop might mean:
1. King with decent kicker
1. flush draw
3. straight draw
4. set
5. better two pair.
There's just a huge range of hands here that might raise if you lead on the flop, and your response would depend on your read of the opponent and the size of his raise.

As played, I think you still might get away from this, depending on your read. The pot is 3650, and he bets 4800. Why would he overbet so much? Answer: To scare away the flush and straight draws because he flopped a BIG hand. What's a big hand here?
1. AK (not likely - no PF raise)
2. Two pair
3. Set

Most reasonable players are not going to make this overbet with a straight or flush draw. We can rule out a set of kings, because that would also be a PF raise. Would he just call with 99 or 88? Maybe. Another factor is that he's a fairly big stack, so he's not short on chips and therefore pressured to play this pot out of desperation. From my experience, a big overbet on the flop means something, and in this case the best read is that he flopped something big that he is protecting. I can't see such a big overbet from a king with a kicker lower than an ace or just a pair of eights or nines. So, assigning some meaning to the overbet, there's probably nothing that you can beat that would lead to a big overbet. You're way behind a set, and you also can't beat any other two pair.

enough said. spot on mr. SpeakEasy. very nice insight