[Limit Breaker]

Look at it this way:

If he limps in and then goes all-in AFTER you've raised from the big blind, he's most likely looking to gamble - because he's putting you on a solid hand but thinks his pair will hold up if face cards doesn't come up on the flop. Generally, when good players do that, they're either holding 10s paired or above, or AK suited. At worst case, AKo. If he had small pair, I'm sure he would have either re-raised you 2x to see the strength of your hand or flat out call your raise to see if he can make a set.

In this case, it was not worth it to call such a big pot with A9s. Too many variables can beat you.

At that point, save your money, fold the hand. I wouldn't call that hand unless I had a genuine hand like 10 pair or above or AKs. Because it will leave you crippled.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by joey umbatz

i think your call was horrible...now obviously i dont know the player youre playing with. i have no idea if he's aggresive or even capable of check raising. However, if you put him on a small pocket pair, you cannot consider your call a "great call". He allready has a made hand. excluding the straight and flush possibilities, you really only have 6 cards that can help you. do you really want to put your whole tournament on an A9. however i dont think your play was as bad as his. unless he picked up a physical tell on you or had a gut feeling you were going to raise, that was a pretty bad move to just call in that position with tens. after your raise however, he made a good play.

I disagree. If he calls against a small PP, he's what, 11-10 dog? Getting 1.7-1 pot odds, it's a good call.

Basically jojo summed it up the best though, you have enough chips left to fold, even though you're getting pretty good odds and have a pretty strong hand. So if you think you're the stronger player, it's still a tough call, but you can lay it down. If he's a better player and/or you're tired/not playing well, then it's a good call.

I also don't think limping with TT is a bad move heads up either. As long as you don't limp with them all the time.

[vrecksler]

A lot of good points have been mentioned, and for the most part I find myself agreeing to ALL the opinions. However we all know that it is WAY easier to critisize a decision after we have already witnessed the aftermath.

Now I have read Super System, both HOH's, but I find when I am playing I tend to forget EVERYTHING! I have only been playing poker since last December, so I am hoping that I just have to ease into it a bit at a time, but I too often play on instinct than reasoning.

So I think it is easy to see why you made the call, and I can even agree with it under the circumstances. It is tough to lay down Ax heads up against a known agressive player who could have anything, and even though he did indicate a strong hand with his call, re-raise move if he is a strong player who is also aggressive, he could have been making a move with much less.

I guess my only suggestion would be for you to try and take more time to make your decision. I know in my home games I always feel pressured to make quick decisions and keep the game moving but maybe with a little more thought you may have been able to make a better read on the situation.

[Spaceman Spiff]

That might be the best advice of all schmag. I do the same thing. I've read a lot of the books. I know how to do the analysis. But I get caught up in the moment and just try to go on instinct also. After the fact, I reasoned through everything based on Harrington. I still think it's a borderline case with good arguments for calling and folding. To me, the odds alone make it a call.

This is why heads up is all about playing the player. He is an aggressive player, but generally somewhat cautious when we tangle in pots. However, to me, all that goes out the window in heads up. He has shown on several occasions that he's willing to put his tournament on the line on a bluff. He also knows that I'll lay down a hand even after raising. In this case, he had a hand, but I think he very easily could have just been trying to put me off of my hand and take my 3K raise.

Anyway, these are the discussions that I think are cool. And it's what makes it such a great game. The fact that almost every question in poker can be answered with, "it depends," really opens things up.

[VARoadstter]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Details: Blinds 500-1000. He's got 11,400, I've got 13,000. He's on the button and limps for another 500. I look down and see A9s and raise to 3,000. He re-raises all-in. If I call the all-in, it leaves me with just 1,600.

The bad guy is a pretty solid and fairly aggressive player. I forget my Harrington and instead of thinking about a range of hands, I'm pretty sure he's got a pocket pair, hopefully a small one. I call and he turns over TT, not the pair I wanted to see as I'm now a 70-30 dog. I flop a 9, but no farther help and I'm crippled. Like I said, I think I made a mistake by not thinking about a range of hands and instead putting him on a hand, and in this case, guessing wrong.

First, my odds. There's 14,400 in the pot with our calls and his all-in re-raise. Costs me 8,400 to call. That's about 1.7 to 1. Factor in also that if I win the hand, I win the tourney. If I'm right about the smaller PP, it's a great call. However, if I thought about it more, he could have possibly also had A-10,J,Q, or K, and I'm still a 70-30 dog. The only hands I'm a favorite against are A-x with x<9 or some random bluff/steal type hand. I wasn't getting nearly the price to call as a potential 70-30 dog.

Bottom line in retrospect, I don't think I was getting the correct price to call. If I lay it down, I still have 10,000 in chips and can regain the chip lead by winning just 1 or 2 hands.

Thoughts?

Emphasis added.

Wow, good stuff in this thread. I didn't put any explanation in my earlier post but there's been some things posted since that I want to weigh in on.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

In this case you have to call 8k to win 13k. so...getting 3-2 odds...that's not bad! you're only dominated by AA-99 and a better A.

The bad news: If he's got AA you are a nearly drawing dead. If you're dominated (AK, AQ, AJ, AT, 99) you are a 3-1 dog. If he's got KK, QQ, JJ, TT you are a 70/30 dog.

The good news: If he's got A8 or lower he's dominated and you're a 3/1 favorite. If he's got 88-22 you're about even money. If it's anything else you're even better.

OP says his opponent "is a pretty solid fairly aggressive player". Based on his being "solid" forget about anything except Ax or a PP. I don't think there's much reason to suspect a stone bluff here. So against any holding that seems within reason you're not looking too good.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

The thing is, folding leaves you with 10k, which is plenty (M~ 7). i guess you should have folded if you think you're a better player, and called if you thought you were going to be outplayed by him in the headsup match.

I'm all for playing aggressively heads-up. In this case, though, he's only left with a call so he's not the one applying the pressure. I'd look for a better spot. I definitely understand your thoughts jojo and I'm certainly not saying "no way you are totally wrong" because I've done basically the exact same thing on occasion on my own. I will say that I felt I was making a mistake when I did, though.

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

If he calls against a small PP, he's what, 11-10 dog? Getting 1.7-1 pot odds, it's a good call.

This I agree with completely. If you are willing to trust your reads to the point that you are comfortable eliminating the other hands, then you did the right thing.

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey

I also don't think limping with TT is a bad move heads up either. As long as you don't limp with them all the time.

I basically never limp HU. If I did then my opponent should probably put me on aces! I don't know how this guy plays on the button, though. You definitely have to mix up your play HU and limping with the big hands is probably among the top deceptive plays to use. Of course, that's assuming that if the flop brings bad news you can let it go.

Great topic, btw. Lots of meat in this thread.

[jojobinks]

'm all for playing aggressively heads-up. In this case, though, he's only left with a call so he's not the one applying the pressure. I'd look for a better spot. I definitely understand your thoughts jojo and I'm certainly not saying "no way you are totally wrong" because I've done basically the exact same thing on occasion on my own. I will say that I felt I was making a mistake when I did, though.

i don't think i was advocating for a call, btw. i usually think i'm a favorite headsup, and usually then, would fold this.

maybe this calls for some math, eh?

best case scenario: he's holding any PP, A8-AK, or KQs.

pokerstove puts this at about 40%. and that, kids, is about 3-2, which is what the pot is paying.

that's best case, of course. worst case is more like AA-99, and AK-AT. then we're 30%.

again, i guess it's read dependent and "do you think you can grind this guy down in the next hour, or will he run over you?" dependent.

[VARoadstter]

Let's do a little more math:

OP indicated that there are 24400 (his 11,400 and your 13000) chips in play (seems like some chips got lost in the ether!). OP also stated that he'll have 10k left if he folds.

If he calls here he's essentially risking the tournament with 3/2 against odds.

If he folds here he's going to be at a 3/2 disadvantage in chips.

Yes, the whole thing comes down to whether or not you feel like you are a superior player since you're going to be a 3/2 dog no matter which way you go. Funny that it worked out like that.

[joey umbatz]

why is everybody basing their decisions on a book? you need real life experience to know what to do. BTW where do you pick up hoh2??

[VARoadstter]

Originally Posted by joey umbatz

why is everybody basing their decisions on a book? you need real life experience to know what to do. BTW where do you pick up hoh2??

Well, you can spend your life losing buyin after buyin picking up experience or you can spend some time thinking about proper play with the guiding advice of the experts. Of course, if all you ever did was read then you'd probably not be any good.

I ordered HOH2 on amazon - still waiting for it to arrive.

Rereading your post I'm kinda still not sure what you mean by your comments. Please elaborate.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by VARoadstter

OP indicated that there are 24400 (his 11,400 and your 13000) chips in play (seems like some chips got lost in the ether!). OP also stated that he'll have 10k left if he folds.

This wasn't our standard game with everyone starting on the same stack. Stack size was determined by finishes during the season. I started with 3,775 I think. Short stack started with about 1,300. But yeah, that total number of chips in play does look weird.

Joey, I'm not basing my decisions on a book, I'm basing it on odds. In my (obviously mistaken) thinking at the time, if he's on a small PP, we're in a coin flip situation. I'm getting 3/2 odds on the outcome of a coin flip. While the fact that this will essentially end the tourney does factor in, those are still great odds. What that's saying is if you and I were to flip a coin 10 times and you gave me 3/2 odds on those flips, on average, I would win $15 and lose $10. Even if the flips break your way 6-4, we still break even at $12 each. Life doesn't offer too many opportunities like that.

As it turned out, my read was wrong and I wasn't getting the correct price to make the call as a 70-30 dog.