Angle shooting or acting?

[jldecarlo]

Playing a hand last night 5 handed. Game is mostly NLHE with some serious trash thrown in (SOHE, Stud hi-lo), all no-limit. One of the players is an infrequent player at our game. Some of the regulars won't play with him - he has a history of repeatedly shorting the pot and similar BS. The ones who won't play with him say they're "tired of having to watch him like a hawk all the time."

Anyway, NLHE hand on the river. Three players in (none of them me). Board is A88Q8. There is a $45 bet to him and he "raises to $75." When told that the minimum raise is to $90, he initially just wants to call, but is informed that he must complete the raise to $90. He wins, holding the case 8.

I didn't think much about this at the time, but later I started wondering about it. Is this acceptable "acting" or does it cross the line into semi-illegal "angle shooting?" What role, if any, does his history play in thinking about it?

L

Edit: may be in the wrong forum.

[JM]

I remember a televised tournament recently, was it WSOP europe maybe?, where someone was did this at the final table with a similar nut holding. The TD gave him a warning and told him it would be a penalty next time, apparently it wasn't the first time during the tourney that he pulled that.

Given this guy's history, I'd say that was intentional. I wouldn't play with him again if I were in your shoes.

[DrStrange]

Looks ok to me.

Villain announces his intention to raise a small amount, too small as it turns out.

After some tap-dancing BS, villain finally makes the tiniest raise possible - exactly what he proposed to start with. The fact he was able to cloud the min-raise with enough 'noise' to fool someone into forgetting what actually was happening is artful. More so given everyone is 'watching like a hawk'.

I have to admit it would be funny if someone snap called the too small raise, making it 'action offered-action accepted' just to see what the villain would do. . . .

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me -=- DrStrange

[stocky]

Originally Posted by JM

I remember a televised tournament recently, was it WSOP europe maybe?, where someone was did this at the final table with a similar nut holding. The TD gave him a warning and told him it would be a penalty next time, apparently it wasn't the first time during the tourney that he pulled that.

Given this guy's history, I'd say that was intentional. I wouldn't play with him again if I were in your shoes.

I remember seeing this as well.

Angle shoot IMO. Sounds like he wants it to sound like he doesn't want to lose the extra $15 and hopes to get reraised.

[cgraham86]

It's a lame attempt at getting more money in the pot - at least a call. If someone misinterprets this as a sad attempt at stealing the pot and decides to raise, or they happen to have a full house big enough to think they might be good they're going to raise anyway and get reraised. It's a way of trying to create action with the nuts rather than just making a bet and hoping for the best. It's angle shooting but it's the saddest form because unless you're stuck with an ace here you're not going to follow through.

Worse would be if they started this little song and dance on the flop - essentially goading the other players to raise him. Do you happen to remember how the hand started and what happened on the flop?

[BGinGA]

It's not technically angle-shooting, but it's pretty crappy unethical behavior, imo. The guy would never get a seat again in my game, and I tend to avoid games that allow players (and antics) like this.

The televised foreign player initially said "raise", then quickly "no, i mean call - no speak English". TD ruled that the verbal declaration of raise was binding and that a min-raise must be put in the pot. The player was not penalized, but his opponent was informed by the TD that the same stunt had been pulled earlier in the tournament when he held the nuts. The opponent called anyway, and the player showed the nuts. Scumbag.

[stocky]

Originally Posted by BGinGA

It's not technically angle-shooting, but it's pretty crappy unethical behavior, imo. The guy would never get a seat again in my game, and I tend to avoid games that allow players (and antics) like this.

The televised foreign player initially said "raise", then quickly "no, i mean call - no speak English". TD ruled that the verbal declaration of raise was binding and that a min-raise must be put in the pot. The player was not penalized, but his opponent was informed by the TD that the same stunt had been pulled earlier in the tournament when he held the nuts. The opponent called anyway, and the player showed the nuts. Scumbag.

Yeah. I really liked the comment from the td. Considering he had done it previously.

[JoseRijo]

From what I can gather from Bart Hanson's podcasts, if his amount is half or more of a min raise, it's a raise... otherwise it's a call.

On the spectrum of poker sins, this seems to be a pretty benign one to me. Isn't it useful information?

[bergs]

Standard play in this situation is to simply hit him in the back of the head with a chair.

What you don't even hear discussed in depth is what chair to hit him with. I mean, why hit him with your chair? You'll want to sit back in the game after you're done hitting him in the back of the head. It's sorta hard to use his chair. The "Excuse me sir, may I have your chair? I'd like to strike you in the back of the cranium with it" line doesn't work well. Using the hosts' chair is just rude. I like to play short handed because it ensures that there will be available chairs with which to smite angleshooters with in the back of their heads. That's just my personal opinion though. Some people bring their own chairs, but I think that just broadcasts what you're going to do.

[UKS]

I love it when people do this. It's a cast iron "I HAVE NUTS" play. It has saved me much money in the past.

P.S Not hitting with a chair. That is the NUTS in WWE.