on the subject of value owning ourselves

[robinnh]

I have finally learned the lesson of Bart Hanson, reenforced by JButler, that it is important to be value owning yourself in games with what Bart likes to call "showdown monkeys."

The idea is that if you are not value owning yourself a fair amount of the time, you are not getting maximum value.

I want to see what others think about this idea, and see if I am taking it to far.

Here are 4 hands from a 1/2 NL game last night against the same villain, who is sitting at my left, and I have covered all night:


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First hand after I sit, I am in the BB with effective stacks $200 ish.

It limps around to me, and I just check. 7 people see the flop.

Flop ($14): I fire out $10, villain at my left calls, the rest of the table folds.

turn ($31):

I fire $25, villain calls.

river ($79):

I fire $60. Villain calls.


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Hand 2:
I am UTG with effective stacks $200ish.

I raise to $12. I get 3 calls.

flop ($36):

I fire $25, villain calls.

turn ($84):

I fire $75, villain calls

river ($230):

I fire $125, villain calls.


================================================== ==========
Hand 3, effective stacks around $250ish:
OTB with

6 limpers and I see flop for $2.

flop ($14):

villain bets $15, I call.

turn($40):

villain bets $40, I call.

river ($120)
villain checks. I bet $100, villain calls.
================================================== ==========
4th hand effective stacks $200ish
I'm in the SB with

6 players in pot (including villain in BB), I complete for $1

flop ($14):

I bet $10, villain calls.

Turn ($32):

I bet $25, villain calls

River ($80):

I bet $75, villain calls.


================================================== ==========

So where did I overplay/overvalue my hands? Thoughts?

[fish72]

Hands #2, #3 and #4 all seem straightforward. What are these guys calling you down with anyway? Did you win every hand?

The river bet in Hand #1 seems ambitious with 3 broadway cards out there and given that 7 people saw the flop. Did the AT win or did villain have aces up?

This is actually something I'm trying to get better at. I'm not very good about getting the max value on the river from my winning hands.

[robinnh]

I will reveal the results and the hands after we discuss whether I am going for value or spewing, but this is the same villain in every hand, here is an idea with this villain:

In hand 4 he shows his hand and says, "I thought A5 might be good here. Hm." and shrugged as he mucked face up.

[Glider]

Sounds like a similar concept to the idea that in order to optimize your bluffing frequency you have to be getting called on bluffs a certain amount.

All four hands look good to me. In Hand 1 the flop is only offering backdoor draws, so no reason to assume he has anything that will beat you. Based on the betting, I would be surprised if you lost more than one of these hands. But based on the fact that you posted this, I imagine you did lose more than one and the villain is super-passive in addition to being a showdown monkey. But I don't see anywhere that the river bet seems wrong.

[DrStrange]

Hand one - I would have bet all three streets, but the river bet might have been smaller. The king is a good card, it makes all the ace-rag hands equal. $60 might chase off callers (its not going to chase off better hands). I think $40 might be more profitable.

Hand two - the river four is unfortuante. I like the smaller river bet in the faint hope that Jx calls.

Hand three - Hero's turn call is dubious. It is calling a full pot sized bet drawing to a ~20% draw (and hero could hit the draw and lose). Hero needs to get an average of +$80 on a river bet to justify the call. I think I would have folded there. River bet is fine, almost obligatory given the turn pot odds Hero accepted.

Hand four - looks good. I'm trying to figure what hands fit villain's limp-call-call-call range. Looks lke Mr. ATM to me. Invite him back.

DrStrange

[bergs]

Hand 1: I like your line till the river. Probably bet that just a tad smaller so that if you raised you can release in the best spirit of Hanson's Bet-Fold directive.

Hand 2: I think you got it all in here (either you or villain)? Good on ya. Played it well if so. I suspect you're chopping though.

Hand 3: Villain leads every street here until the flush comes in on the river. Smells like KQ to me. You need to bet the river - classic example of losing value with a check behind and if you get pwned by Qh7h, so be it. I like the bet sizing - was thinking $70-90 but whatever. You shove here and you're likely only getting called by better. Tough turn call. I didn't do the math but I'd be tempted to fold here unless I could really put the villain on a hand that wasn't a combo draw that included a bigger flush draw.

Hand 4: He's been calling you down the whole way. I'd bet more on the flop ($25?) and put in a 1/2 pot sized bet on the turn with flopped 2 pair, particularly when the non-straightening turn hits. As played, the pot is $80 on the river and effective stacks are $170. I'd probably bet something like $120 and hope to get a shrug-shove from the other player.

[robinnh]

Originally Posted by DrStrange

Looks lke Mr. ATM to me. Invite him back.

DrStrange

This guy is at every session. He never fails to attend. I'm trying to get an invite to his 10/20 limit game, where I could seriously pwn him.

[robinnh]

I'll try to adress some of the concerns, and give the results:

Hand 1: No raise preflop. Thought my AT was good. Nope. Ran into AQ for 2pr. Note: no raise pre with AQ. No raise on turn with 2pr. No raise on river.

Hand 2.
I lose to pocket 3s. No raise at any point from villain.

Hand 3.
turn call is dubious if implied odds are not there. This is first hand villain has led the betting with. I knew he would not get away from hand if I made my flush, and felt strong he had some kind of made hand, as he had been so passive all day.

I fired river, he tanked for 2 minutes, announced call, and then asked if I had flush. I tables hand and he mucked. I have no idea what he held there that turned up his aggression. I'd love to know. Needed to get $80+ on river to make turn call correct. My read was right, and I got my value.

Hand 4. As already disclosed, he called me the whole way with A5. TPTK on flop plus gut shot.

Takeaways:
So maybe over betting river on hand 1? I think I am right to call and get paid on flush draw. Finished 4 hour session +$225. It was a good table with other value-towned villains. Great lineup last night. Never even got to play a hand with the real fish at the table on my right.

[JM]

Franks game? Which villain, Mark?

Hand 1 you're probably value owning yourself to a 2 pr hand.

Hand 2, I think the river 4 gets you paid nicely since the J won't play now for your hand. Villain may think he's chopping with any A. You could probably bet bigger there.

I agree with the Dr. on hand 3, speculative call on the turn. If you had a str8 draw too I'd like it better.

Hand 4 looks fine.

edit: lol I was typing this as you posted results above me.

[robinnh]

Here's another from the same session:

Effective stacks $200+ depending on villain

I get UTG+1

I raise to 12 and get 4 callers.

flop ($55)

I lead out $35 and get called in two spots.

Turn ($160) (yuck)

I bet $80 and get called in one spot.

River ($320)
could be worse, at least I have the nuts again, think I'm chopping.

Stick in my last $70ish, last villain folds saying he had J9 for 2 pair.

The villain from the last 4 hands was not even in this one. I think you just have to keep hammering for value in this game.