$1/2NL: AA in SB

[jbutler16]

yet another in a long line of my "how the f*ck do i play premium hands" strat threads. this one is different in that it's not so much focused on whether we can call later streets or get thin value with one pair, but is more focused on sizing and ranging opponents. this is a private game with a couple good, but mostly horrendous players. while you have to open up a little because you'll get crushed folding to every 3 bet by every loose fish at the table, you really only win by playing tight and right.

i'm going to do this thread as a step-by-step so that we make all decisions together.

two limps around to one of the decent players in the hijack who makes it $11. button calls and it's back to me in the SB with . i'm about $550 deep and into the game for $300. hijack has me covered by a lot, but is into the game for $1600 and is still stuck a few hundred. button is sitting on $450 and has just gotten back on his feet to be $50 into the black after a night of shortstacking. hijack views me as a competent player, but one capable of making spewy bluffs and big calls with sh*t hands, particularly against him. no history with button. the rest of the table, especially UTG+1 and 2 are terrible, terrible players who will call moderately sized 3-bets pre with weak holdings and have no relevant perception of my play (or anyone else's most likely). they're typical "feel players".

so the easy answer is raise, but how much given stack sizes and opponents? i don't feel compelled to raise big to thin the field because i don't mind taking my aces against 4 or 5 opponents. i can fold them post-flop without much attachment, but at the same time i don't want to give up value if i can raise bigger and still get called.

[tastic]

I had almost the same situation at a 1/3 game last night...except a one seat shift in positions...limp limp button makes it 11, SB calls, I have AA in BB.

I made it $40 to go last night so that would be what I would have likely done in your situation.

[bergs]

$26 feels entirely callable and builds a nice pot. It's just 3 more redbirds to the Hijack and button, and it's possible that one of the UTG players comes along as well. You could have a pot of $100 or so going into the flop.

If you wanted to thin the herd a bit and maybe go HU with someone (e.g. weren't married to the Aces but strongly considering going steady) I'd raise to $36.

Sometimes when I want calls (or I'm just f*cking lazy) I'll consider what's each player has in the middle for chips when I'm betting. For example, There are times where I'd normally bet $30 but I bet $27 or $32 because I'm too lazy to pull back the 2 $1s or I want it to be an easy call for another player. Hence the strange $26/36 sizing.

[DrStrange]

How do you feel about playing aces multi-way and out of possition? Personally I hate it and 'charge a premium' to compensate for awful possition. It is going to be rough playing with a $125 pot / five way action. I'd either like to thin the field a bit or build the pot so big that we become committed.

The pot would be $39 after Hero catches up to the $11 raise. I think "$50 to go" or "$40 on top" is fine. I would feel pot committed on a dry flop - its going to be hard to get enough information fast enough to save our stack if things go wrong.

I am already noting that stacks are deep enough to offer reasonable implied odds to pocket pairs and suited-connectors. I think a multi-way donkey train is entirely possible. Maybe we should be betting $50 on top? We have the big blind plus two awful calling station types as the first three to act. Once one calls the rest will too.

DrStrange

[fish72]

I'm a glass-half-empty person so the first thing I noticed is that this is probably the worst time and place for aces:> OOP with lots behind and you are forced into showing the strength of your hand.

How strong do you think the hijack is? You may be able to get it all in pre-flop with a min-raise or maybe $16 or $20, as if you are trying to push out the limpers with a marginal hand. If limper(s) call and if hijack has a quality hand he'll be in a position to re-raise. (maybe button if he had AK?)
Best scenario would be two callers and a re-raise. One caller is pretty good too. Worst case is 3 callers but even from there you can play it as a 1-pair hand and re-evaluate after the flop.

If you don't want to play it tricky I'd just make it $35 or $40 and expect 1 caller. Drawback here is it will be harder to extract a lot more value unless hijack hits tptk or big draw and it will be hard to fold if you get out flopped.

Interesting hand. looking forward to others' comments...

[bergs]

Originally Posted by DrStrange

How do you feel about playing aces multi-way and out of possition?
DrStrange

It depends on whether I want to play AA as a premium hand or I want to turn it into a setmining hand. Raise to $30ish to get callers build a pot and play fit or fold on the flop, or raise to $50+ and isolate 1-2 callers and play it as a premium hand on the flop.

My natural and initial inclination was to put $40 on top and make it $51 to go, and while you're broadcasting a premium hand, you might get the hijack to call because he was the initial raiser (Hanson's aggression therom in play) and because he's stuck and probably chasing a bit. I think the other players probably fold.

I floated the idea of a smaller raise and inviting calls because JB mentioned this:

i don't feel compelled to raise big to thin the field because i don't mind taking my aces against 4 or 5 opponents. i can fold them post-flop without much attachment

Sounds like he wants to build a pot pre, and also put himself in a situation to get called by 1-2 worse hands for a big bet on the flop, or let it go (check-fold or more likely, bet-fold) on wet boards.

I think either approach works......as long as you dont' get married to AA with 3+ callers on the flop. This is where alot of people have trouble. Flop two broadway cards with a 2-flush and "ZOMG I can't fold AA" and they stick it in.

As I see it, the real problems with AA multiway OOP are:

1) They forget it's just a one pair hand going into a (potentially wet) flop
2) On any sort of wet flop, if they bet it hard with AA, they're likely only getting called by worse
3) Most players don't bet-fold, so when they lead out they risk being stack-committed (particularly if they don't have a good idea of bet sizing)
4) The players trying to play AA multiway (regardless of position) better have a plan going into the flop.

If you want to play AA multiway OOP and build a pot and essentially turn your AA into a 66 equivalent, have at it. Just do it damn carefully.

[bergs]

Originally Posted by fish72

If you don't want to play it tricky I'd just make it $35 or $40 and expect 1 caller. Drawback here is it will be harder to extract a lot more value unless hijack hits tptk or big draw and it will be hard to fold if you get out flopped.

Interesting hand. looking forward to others' comments...

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I think if he makes it $35 he risks getting 2+ callers. $40 is more of a pyschological barrier at $1/2 that may induce a fold.

I think the biggest thing here, as JB alluded to, is bet sizing. First you need to figure out whether you want 1-2 callers or 2-3 callers (and there is a big difference in that one additional caller when OOP with AA). If I think something around $40 would induce folds and get me HU or vs 2 villains, I may decide to play it on the safe side and just make it $56 to go. Same applies the other way - if you want callers and want to setmine the AA, and you think something around $30 would get the job done, maybe even just raise to $24-26 and watch them call (or raise) behind you.

I'm looking forward to this as well. I'd rather err on the side of too big rather than too small generally as Dr. Strange alluded to - if I make a mistake, I want fewer players going into the flop, not more.

[Krafticus]

I am thinking that we now have $39 in the pot. In an ideal world, we'd love to have either the initial raiser go over the top, but that might not happen if we bet too large. At this point, I would raise $35 on top to bring the pot to $74. If the initial raiser and the button both call, we need to be leary on their pending actions.

** note, i've never really played $1/$2, and also don't know what the average raise and 3-bet raises have looked like on the table. I assume the $11 is a stand PFR at this game. What % of 3-bets are being called? .. and by these players??

Mark

[jbutler16]

Originally Posted by DrStrange

How do you feel about playing aces multi-way and out of possition? Personally I hate it and 'charge a premium' to compensate for awful possition.

i really don't mind it. in this game (as is the case with home private games here) there is a lot of value to allowing a guy to catch top pair on the flop. they generally play super straightforward. maybe raising the flop, but just flatting the turn and river. i'm c-betting 90% of boards and evaluating. i'm fine with putting a quarter of my stack in the middle and folding if i feel i'm beat.

Originally Posted by DrStrange

I am already noting that stacks are deep enough to offer reasonable implied odds to pocket pairs and suited-connectors. I think a multi-way donkey train is entirely possible. Maybe we should be betting $50 on top? We have the big blind plus two awful calling station types as the first three to act. Once one calls the rest will too.

once i get beyond 200 BBs i rarely make it a goal to make it unprofitable to call pre with pocket pairs or suited connectors. a typical three bet pre will usually make it unprofitable to call with suited connectors and occasionally with pocket pairs. there's the added consideration of letting someone come in with two eights. if the board comes ragged these guys love to say "i put you on ace king so i have to call" and call you down three streets to the river. in any case, i let the natural flow of the betting take care of making it unprofitable for suited connectors.

Originally Posted by Krafticus

I assume the $11 is a stand PFR at this game. What % of 3-bets are being called? .. and by these players??

this is on the smaller side. it's typically $16-20 to go with one of the worse players making it $25 if there is a straddle on or if there are a couple of limpers. i would say 3-bets get called 70%+ of the time.

[jbutler16]

Originally Posted by jbutler16

yet another in a long line of my "how the f*ck do i play premium hands" strat threads. this one is different in that it's not so much focused on whether we can call later streets or get thin value with one pair, but is more focused on sizing and ranging opponents. this is a private game with a couple good, but mostly horrendous players. while you have to open up a little because you'll get crushed folding to every 3 bet by every loose fish at the table, you really only win by playing tight and right.

i'm going to do this thread as a step-by-step so that we make all decisions together.

two limps around to one of the decent players in the hijack who makes it $11. button calls and it's back to me in the SB with . i'm about $550 deep and into the game for $300. hijack has me covered by a lot, but is into the game for $1600 and is still stuck a few hundred. button is sitting on $450 and has just gotten back on his feet to be $50 into the black after a night of shortstacking. hijack views me as a competent player, but one capable of making spewy bluffs and big calls with sh*t hands, particularly against him. no history with button. the rest of the table, especially UTG+1 and 2 are terrible, terrible players who will call moderately sized 3-bets pre with weak holdings and have no relevant perception of my play (or anyone else's most likely). they're typical "feel players".

so the easy answer is raise, but how much given stack sizes and opponents? i don't feel compelled to raise big to thin the field because i don't mind taking my aces against 4 or 5 opponents. i can fold them post-flop without much attachment, but at the same time i don't want to give up value if i can raise bigger and still get called.

(quoting the above to keep the action together as the hand progresses)

with the goal of getting the hijack and the button to both come along and thinking it's 50/50 whether the limpers will call, i make it $36. BB folds, UTG+1 insta-calls, hijack calls without much thought and button almost beats him into the pot with his call.

flop ($152):

my boner hit the bottom of the table but i coughed to cover up the sound. what to do, guys? one consideration: hijack has been routinely doing my c-betting for me tonight. typically he'll call OOP and lead into me.