Flopping a monster

[jldecarlo]

Here's the situation. 1-3 NLHE, Wynn Poker Room, Las Vegas. 9 players, I'm SB. Been at the table for a few hours. Half the players are regulars, ie semipros. To my right (button) is a tourist with a stack of nearly $2K. He's loose and lucky. To his right (CO) is a guy with headphones who hasn't said a word in an hour. Young, semi-pro vs semi-pro wannabe. Table is generally deep. I have $450 and most everybody has me covered.

Two or three limpers to CO who makes it 18. Button calls. I have 22 and call. Three other callers. Flop is KK2, two spades. $104 in the pot.

What do you do? More importantly, how do you decide. This is a hand that can make or break your session.

L

[DrStrange]

Hero has the worst full house possible. It may seem like an unbeatable monster, but a villain with Kx is going to catch up a bit more than 20% of the time. Also Hero has no way to know what card kills him. Every card in the deck is dangerous except for the case 2. If you were heads up vs a predictable TAG you likely could consider little cards as safe bricks but playing a 6-way raised pot you can't assume anything.

My plan is to 'fast play' this hand. The target is anyone holding a king, and to a lesser, extent a sticky villain with a big pocket pair. I lead for $100, planning to bet $200 heads-up or pushing the turn multiway. I want to play for stacks vs Kx hands, the faster the stacks go in, the better.

Hero is going to hate it if he slow plays and the flop checks through. This could make it hard to get the money in vs king-rag - but hero is getting felted should king-rag turn into kings full of rags. That's why I don't want to slow play here, Hero gets stacked when he loses and doesn't get all him money in vs trip kings unimproved.

One thing we are missing is Hero's table image. If Hero is the table nit, he might be more inclined to slow play. If Hero has a loosy-goosy image, he really needs to fire away right away.

DrStrange

[albie]

Definitely check and see what happens imo. A king's going to bet with the potential flush out there and CO's liable to C-bet a pocket pair if it's checked to him. Obv it depends, but I'm minded to check-raise should the opportunity arise.

[JM]

I like the Dr's line here, you can't slow play this because too many cards can kill your hand. You gotta bet out. Any K will likely come along since they wouldn't expect a K to bet out like that. Bomb the turn no matter what comes (except a 2)

[jbutler16]

unless there's some strange table dynamic where CO and BTN have been overbetting every flop when checked to or you've not played a hand in 3 hours, i think you bet 100% of the time. i'd bet $80. you'll have $350 behind and if someone calls you'll be able to bet $150 on the turn and get your last $200 in on the river if the guy has a K and decides to just go into a calling shell.

[Mojo1312]

Do what I did when I stayed in with pocket 8's after a $10 pre-flop bet was made at the $1/$2 table and the flop turned over a rainbow K,8,K.

1) Place a feeler bet and call the re-raise.
2) Check the turn if the card is a non threatening, like a 4, and re-raise the bet made by the player holding trip kings.

And then

4) Call his all-in shove.
5) Sit back and watch in self satisfaction as the dealer flips a king on the river.

Any questions?

[bergs]

Originally Posted by Mojo1312

Do
1) Place a feeler bet and call the re-raise.

I lol'd at "feeler bet"

[fish72]

I agree that this is not a hand you want to play slow. A baby boat is alot more vulnerable than it looks. Its very possible that there is a K and 2 small/medium pairs out there. You lose to 8 cards on the turn and any runner-runner.
You want to get as much money in the pot as quick as possible. If you are think that someone will bet the flop then I'd go for the check-raise (and possibly make a little extra from a caller that will fold to your raise.) With 5 or 6 players there is even a reasonable chance for a bet from a pair and a king re-raise which would allow you to get your stack in on the flop.
My first reaction was to bet the flop but now I think that it is worth the risk of giving a free card to get some extra money in the pot. I guess it depends on what you think the chances of 5 or 6 people checking the flop are. The upside is that in this case there probably are only 4 outs to beat you on the turn and the possibility of someone making a flush to pay you off.

[robinnh]

I wonder about this idea of having to fast play. I think it is right, but some of the reasoning seems wrong.

Fast playing here is to try to gt the money in , not because you're vulnerable.

Against Kx, Kx has 3 outs to a boat, 1 out to quads, and needs runner runner pair cards to beat you.

Since you don't know when he hits, and are likely to go broke no matter how fast the money goes in here.

I want to play for stacks vs Kx hands, the faster the stacks go in, the better.

Hero is going to hate it if he slow plays and the flop checks through. This could make it hard to get the money in vs king-rag - but hero is getting felted should king-rag turn into kings full of rags. That's why I don't want to slow play here, Hero gets stacked when he loses and doesn't get all him money in vs trip kings unimproved.

I think the only reason getting the money in fast here is good is to get all the money in. At 150bb deep in a 6 way pot, we'll never have enough info to make a good fold. I am thinking we just want to get as much money in the pot as possible, and fast playing seems the best way. If we get coolered, we get coolered.

If you are 90%+ confident someone will bet for you, and someone else will play back at them, and that will get more money into the pot, then check, otherwise, I like the jbutler line.

[KingMedicine]

IMO, the doctor is right. I had almost this exact situation happen to me a few months ago. Pocket 4's and flop was KK4. I tried to get goosy with my play and trap everyone in. It completely worked, cept for the river being an Ace and the guy next to me having pocket aces... Attempt to get some money out of the hand, but dont let them catch up to beat you.