Don't let this be you

DrStrange · Tweet this Post! #1 05-27-2012, 03:24 AM

Most discussions about bankroll mangaement aren't meaningful. There are many players who are net losers to which bankroll mangement is useless (they need to focus on budgeting periodic stop-losses). Of the winning players, the vast majority can cover swings in fortune from paychecks or cash reserves. Of course there are a few rare 'professionals' living off their bankroll who need to be thoughtful about bankroll issues.

However, I find that one of the semi-regulars in my circle has a crippled himself with bankroll mismanagemnt (something that I truly didn't realize for years.)

This guy is one of the top three winners out of maybe 100 players, winning maybe $20 - $25/hr. He is a skilled LAG - clearly the most skilled LAG of the group.

Here is his (big) mistake. The LAG style he plays depends on very deep stacks, he needs $400+ effective stacks for his bets to scare off the calling stations. Problem is, he doesn't set aside winnings to cover losses - he spends winnings on "bling" watches and custom gold crap. So he comes to the game with a limited amount of cash and buys in $200 with the idea of winning enough to play his LAG style (but his TAGish game isn't so good and he often fails.) He should be coming to the game with $2,000 in hand and buying in deep rather than coming with $400 and leaving when that is spent.

(Note that many of us SHOULD be setting stop losses at 400 - $600 per session, but this player needs to be able to absorb a down $1,200 night and come back next game ready and able to do it again if he intends to maintain his win rate.)

Compounding this is the LAG works for about $4,000 / month gross. When he has a down swing, he can't even afford to buy in for $200 out of pocket because he is out of cash and mostly unwilling to risk credit-card advance money (or pawn one of his $5,000+ watches) He can't play this month and likely can't play next month either due to lack of funds.

On a mercinary level, this a good thing for the Dr. - one less dangerous player in the game. But in other ways I just wonder how he could be so dumb. Just one less piece of bling and he could afford to play the game the way he does best.

This is a meta game lesson. This guy should be winning an average of $200 or more per session if only he had his finances / bankroll in order. Not only doesn't he have the money to play 'right' he doesn't even think about how destructive it is to start with too few chips to play your "A" Game.

Don't let this be you -=- DrStrange

stocky · Tweet this Post! #2 05-27-2012, 03:46 AM

Interesting read thanks Dr. I never thought about different styles needing different brm and stop losses.

Shame about the player. Maybe 2 months off will make him think twice about blowing his winnings so quickly.

Thomacetti · Tweet this Post! #3 05-27-2012, 03:55 AM

Great read !

Now please post same advise for my chip bankroll !

DrStrange · Tweet this Post! #4 05-27-2012, 04:03 AM

Sure thing Thomacetti - sell off your family jewlels and buy more chips.

Problem solved! -=- DrStrange

umbkcshah · Tweet this Post! #5 05-27-2012, 09:00 AM

While the post is well thought out, not everyone is a serious player. The person may have the skills in your mind, perhaps he doesn't care (or view poker the same). While his actions are detrimental to his long term prospects in the game, it doesn't sound like he's hurting himself in other areas (ie can't pay for other things. Sorry guys, don't have the money this week).

It sounds like he viewed his poker winnings as disposable income to buy things that he couldn't justify on his normal income. Now if he was not able to pay rent or some other situation, that's different. Sounds like he's a gambler, not necessarily a poker player.

Not that uncommon a situation. He values his watch more than the game - pretty simple. Now if it was rent, then there'd be a concern.

cgraham86 · Tweet this Post! #6 05-27-2012, 09:53 AM

Your friend has bigger issues than bankroll problems. He's living beyond his means away from the poker table. In fact the reason why he doesn't want to borrow money may be because of existing credit problems.

There's a couple of players I know who are just like this. When they win the $ goes right into their wallet. Even after a huge night the next week they're broke again. When they play well they play well, but they don't set the poker $ aside and build a BR so when they don't play well it can simply be absorbed and they can build back up. They $ is spent already.

However, outside of poker I know a few people who can't seem to figure out how to stop spending money in general. It's a serious disease right now with a lot of people. I had one friend tell me the reason why they're buying a new car is that they believe the news that the recession is over, so....why not? Well, you're deep in the hole on credit cards, you pay a $200 per month cell phone bill, you're barely holding onto your house, and you want to buy a new car? Really? You'll be living out of it...

Doesn't seem to make a dent. Some people can't stop from spending money the moment it is in their hands. Mix that with gambling and you have a serious time bomb on your hands.

xtwalker · Tweet this Post! #7 05-27-2012, 10:22 AM

First, the dude has some real life issues if that is how he is managing his poker winnings/losses.

Second, it really doesnt at all sound like he is a big long term winner. Def sounds like he is skilled enough to be a long term big winner, but not handling downswings seems to be killing that dream.

There could easily be an apearance of it from some memorable big cashes, but it would take an awful lot of recorded sessions to know if he is a winning player with the high variance style you talk about.

I know of two games where the hosts track winnings and losses - the spreadsheets don't lie, but the players do. There is one big winner who is making a killing every week without losing sessions and everyone knows it. There is one big loser who donates constantly, rarely comes out ahead and everyone knows it. There are a lot of players that no-one knows how they are doing until they look at the spreadsheets to see surprising results.

BTW - the players learning surprising results and not being able to lie to themselves are why I am against hosts tracking like this.

bergs · Tweet this Post! #8 05-27-2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xtwalker

First, the dude has some real life issues if that is how he is managing his poker winnings/losses.

Second, it really doesnt at all sound like he is a big long term winner. Def sounds like he is skilled enough to be a long term big winner, but not handling downswings seems to be killing that dream.

There could easily be an apearance of it from some memorable big cashes, but it would take an awful lot of recorded sessions to know if he is a winning player with the high variance style you talk about.

I know of two games where the hosts track winnings and losses - the spreadsheets don't lie, but the players do. There is one big winner who is making a killing every week without losing sessions and everyone knows it. There is one big loser who donates constantly, rarely comes out ahead and everyone knows it. There are a lot of players that no-one knows how they are doing until they look at the spreadsheets to see surprising results.

BTW - the players learning surprising results and not being able to lie to themselves are why I am against hosts tracking like this.

How would the hosts even track this? Or why? I could see if there were a season long tournament point thing, but cash games? Just weird.

pltrgyst · Tweet this Post! #9 05-27-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhbergman

How would the hosts even track this? Or why? I could see if there were a season long tournament point thing, but cash games? Just weird.

Easy to track if you're the bank.

I've thought about doing this, but don't want to discourage the customers.

Even right now, while I'm running a points series within my weekly cash games, and publishing results weekly (total points, avg. points, etc.), players don't seem to be using that information in any way to change their play.

It looks to me like the big sports bettors among the group (who also tend to be the craps players) are the most significant regular losers.

xtwalker · Tweet this Post! #10 05-27-2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhbergman

How would the hosts even track this? Or why? I could see if there were a season long tournament point thing, but cash games? Just weird.

One is a game on an aircraft carrier where playing for cash just isn't convinient - cash out or pay in when you reach a port and cash is readily available.

The other is a game where the host started tracking his own results and talked openly about them - others actually asked to be tracked as well. Now he uses it to track the bank. It gets akward when the big loser on the night gets up to leave with most of the table still playing and the host asks "how much did you buy in for? we track that here"