Need help with this hand

SILKS POKER ROOM · Tweet this Post! #1 02-13-2009, 01:17 PM

middle stages of a multi tournament -LIVE tournament.
I am in late position have been playing very tight only showed down monsters.
UTG limps blinds 600-1200 50 ante, no other limpers I raise to 4k. I have 16k in my stack (after raise). Everyone folds to hero who has around 12k before he calls...he thinks for a moment and calls. heads up to the flop.
FLOP ALL HEARTS 10, 2, 4. He checks I am pretty sure he missed the flop.
I shove all in he thinks for about 5 seconds and says I call.
He flips over A Hearts 9 Clubs. I have pocket JACKS Jack Club, Jack of Heart.

I had him taged as Tight passive player.

My question is how the heck can he call A) Pre-flop and B) post flop?

Yeah he's drawing to the nuts but with incorrect pot odds?

I really put him on pocket 8's or smaller when he called PF.

Needless to say he hit heart on turn to cripple me.

Do you guys risk your tournament life on a draw with incorrect odds?

Steiner · Tweet this Post! #2 02-13-2009, 01:23 PM

Not unless I am on my tenth beer.

Steiner

beyondtilt · Tweet this Post! #3 02-13-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SILKS POKER ROOM

Do you guys risk your tournament life on a draw with incorrect odds?

that's all i ever do

that's why i don't win

beyondtilt · Tweet this Post! #4 02-13-2009, 01:26 PM

you also know the saying silks

there's 3 ways to play pocket jacks.......and they're all wrong

mipevi · Tweet this Post! #5 02-13-2009, 01:30 PM

UTG's play with A9o pre was terrible.

On the flop he has to put about 8k in to win 16k in the pot, right? He might think all the hearts and remaining aces are outs, which would make it 12 total. I'd call with those odds since we're not close to money (?). No wait, I wouldn't call because I would have shoved that flop.

SILKS POKER ROOM · Tweet this Post! #6 02-13-2009, 01:31 PM

yeah I am pretty sure I had the guy pre-flop and post flop. Was just looking for some #'s from some of you experts out there. That was my first live tournament since November.

luckychick · Tweet this Post! #7 02-13-2009, 01:50 PM

Pre-flop was not a good call - however it's hard to say what's going on in his head without being there. It's possible that if you are playing as tight as you say, that he thinks that he can bet almost any flop and take it down - I don't know.

As far as post flop - he is getting good odds, especially with two cards to come.

Pokerstove:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.045 secs 22,000 games/sec

Board: Th 2h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.737% 43.74% 00.00% 433 0.00 { Ah9c }
Hand 1: 56.263% 56.26% 00.00% 557 0.00 { JcJh }

---
(Hand 0 is him, hand 1 is you)
Money in the pot is 4000+4000+1200*+600*+antes (IDK # of players, but lets guess 50*6=300)=10100 (*I assume you were not in the blind?)

So he has to call all his stack (8000). 8000/10100 or about 0.79:1... Odds wise he's getting about 0.76:1. It's pretty close. If you round up or down with antes or the few hundred in your stacks that you are leaving out, then the flop call isn't that bad. With the blinds taking up a significant portion of your stacks at this point, there is going to have to be some gambling going on (although I always prefer to bet all in than call all in).

The problem with his call pf is that it's almost inevitable he'll be playing for his whole stack - I don't know if he knows that or not pf, but out of position A9o is a hard hand to play. As I said, maybe he thinks he can float you and steal on the flop, and then it's not so bad, but I don't know if he's thinking that far ahead.

mipevi · Tweet this Post! #8 02-13-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckychick

(Hand 0 is him, hand 1 is you)
Money in the pot is 4000+4000+1200*+600*+antes (IDK # of players, but lets guess 50*6=300)=10100 (*I assume you were not in the blind?)

So he has to call all his stack (8000). 8000/10100 or about 0.79:1...

Don't forget that Silks shoved, effectively putting 8000 more in the pot. The odds to call are much better.

luckychick · Tweet this Post! #9 02-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mipevi

Don't forget that Silks shoved, effectively putting 8000 more in the pot. The odds to call are much better.

Ah crap, I was thinking it was a pretty easy call. I did the math and was like "huh, I thought this was an easy call... oh well, I guess it's close." Ran through the math and totally forgot that 8G. Thanks for pointing it out.

So yeah, he's getting closer to 1.5:1 on his money - the flop call is good.

jojobinks · Tweet this Post! #10 02-13-2009, 02:00 PM

4k is too little preflop.

also, it's worthwhile to note that your read on him is bad (as a tight passive). the truth is that players at live tournaments are generally terrible. so his limp utg, even if he seems tight, is more indicative of a scared player than anything else. truthfully, a tight player never limps utg with that stack ever, unless he's being tricky with kk+. if that's your read then you should limp along and hope to flop a set (which in reality i'd do like never).

if you put him on 88 preflop then you should be looking to get it in as early as possible. you don't give your position but if you're late/blinds i don't know why you don't just go ahead and shove. if he's only got 12k the 4k bet is just a milking bet, which isn't a great way to play late stages with shallow stacks and medium strength hands.