PLO hi hand -- tell me if I played right

[whataboutj]

After busting out first in last nights MMN H.O.R.S.E game (as openlu predicted by me) I started playing PLO10. I bought in for the full amount and never had to reload so I was feeling good about my play (or was just really lucky). The following hand occurred and afterward I was wondering if I played it poorly post flop. For the record this is not a thinly veiled brag post -- I really would like to know if my play in this hand was good or just luckboxish. The other question I have is about the main villains play. Should they have even been in the hand for the flop? I really enjoyed Omaha (even without this hand) and intend on playing more so any tips would be appreciated too.
Thanks in advance

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 9 players - View hand 33420
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $2.35
UTG+1: $0.95
UTG+2: $15.40
MP1: $3.70
MP2: $14.25
Hero (CO): $15.50
BTN: $9.80
SB: $9.90
BB: $11.75

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with A Q T A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, SB calls $0.45, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.95 all in, UTG+2 calls $0.85, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $2.05

Flop: ($7.55) 2 6 5 (3 players - 1 is all in)
UTG+2 requests TIME, UTG+2 bets $7.55, Hero raises to $12.50 all in, UTG+2 calls $4.85 all in

Turn: ($32.35) A (3 players - 3 are all in)

River: ($32.35) 5 (3 players - 3 are all in)

Final Pot: $32.35
UTG+1 shows K 4 8 K (two pair, Kings and Fives)
UTG+2 shows 5 7 6 3 (a full house, Fives full of Sixes)
Hero shows A Q T A (a full house, Aces full of Fives)
Hero wins $27.20
Hero wins $3.15

[StevenH72]

Sadly, this hand shows you are exactly what Omaha players love to see, a hold'em player, "having a go" at Omaha.

I love PLO and am reasonably new to the game as well. But I learnt a lot from Jeff Hwangs Book.

I would suggest giving it a read, and you will understand your mistakes here.

You are obv struggling to get your money in pre-flop with AAQT so I'd flat call UTG+1's all-in, as a raise just makes it tougher to play post-flop.

Post flop unless you hit a set, AA is quite often not going to be good.

Villain could easily have a set, 2 pair, or a big 16card nut straight draw.

Easy fold on the flop imo.

[imthatguy]

I'm not an expert (yet) but all of my focus is squarely on PLO10 these days (logged 6K hands in the last three weeks).

Your hand is okay, but it's not great (no flush draws), and plays really badly against two random opponents. I'd also flat-call the push on the flop and not re-open the betting. In PLO you really only want to push it in when you've got the best of it, or the best draw. And on that flop, I see neither.

Don't get me wrong, it's awesome that you won, but you'll throw away your bankroll if you play like this at these levels (or any level for that matter).

I pokerstoved this hand preflop to give you some perspective:

Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
Cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Qc Ad Ah 217417 43.48 282583 56.52 0 0.00 0.435
Kc 8c 4c Kd 107992 21.60 391823 78.36 185 0.04 0.216
7s 6c 3d 5h 174406 34.88 325409 65.08 185 0.04 0.349

After the flop:

Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing 5c 2d 6h
Cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Qc Ad Ah 141 21.17 525 78.83 0 0.00 0.212
Kc 8c 4c Kd 162 24.32 504 75.68 0 0.00 0.243
7s 6c 3d 5h 363 54.50 303 45.50 0 0.00 0.545

Since you're never more than 43% favourite preflop you shouldn't be trying to get it all in, and when your odds drop to 21% after the flop, I'd say you're in pretty rough shape.

I don't mind aggression, but when someone plays back at you on these harmless looking boards, alarm bells start to go off in my head.

[cdnmoose]

I'm with Matty except the flat calling part on the flop. WTF? He has $4.85 behind. If you are in for $7+ on the flop, you are not going to fold for another $4.85 on the turn.

That being said AA, is not the nuts in Omaha. It's hard to be a huge favourite unless you are up against another AA hand where your kickers are better and you have suited cards cutting off other draws. Villian's hand is actually a perfect hand to be holding against AA in Omaha, as Matty's analysis shows. Since you raised twice, it is obvious you have AA so I'm calling all day long with a hand like villian's.

1. I'm not building a big pot with AA unless I know I can get heads up. You've raised once, flat call the shove. It's a good hand but not great because you don't control any suits. Change the hand to double suited and I am reraising until the cows come home.

2. How sick would you feel if you have built a big pot, you fire another pot bet on the flop and then get check raised allin? It was lucky you won and more lucky that he donk bet the flop, giving you the chance to fold and even more lucky that he didn't have a larger stack and end up stacking you.

3. You have to fold these hands on the flop. Your hand didn't improve. Unimproved AA is crap on the flop in Omaha. There is no flush draw, which is a plus but you have no redraws to a big straight. Only reason for calling would be if villian is a known maniac. However, since all he did was flat call preflop and now he is betting out on the flop, odds are you are behind.

Since he ended up having 2 pr, you needed for the board to pair (3 outs on the flop and 6 outs on the turn - you can't pair one of his cards or he has a boat) or suck out with your AAA (2 outer, but given the betting could easily be one or zero outs remaining). This is the importance of holding a lot of redraws if you get in behind - but in this hand, you have none.

[imthatguy]

Originally Posted by cdnmoose

I'm with Matty except the flat calling part on the flop. WTF? He has $4.85 behind. If you are in for $7+ on the flop, you are not going to fold for another $4.85 on the turn.

Gah, missed that. You're right, I'm not folding there, but more importantly, I'm probably not calling his initial bet in the first place.

[whataboutj]

Thanks for the feedback & book recomendation. Like I said I am still very new to Omaha. I figured I was the luckbox in that hand - I knew the other guy was steaming afterward too. I guess I will take the lucky hand and learn the game more from here.

Any other comments and startegy would be greatly appreciated.
J

[abby99]

I second StevenH72's recommendation to study Jeff Hwang's book. Among other things, Hwang examines a large number of specific hands and explains WHY each hand is superior, strong, marginal, or garbage. He also discusses which hands play better HU v multi-way, and how you can control pot size to suit your hand.

That's a mighty pretty hand but not as good as it looks, and I agree that calling the shove pre-flop would have been the better move (disregarding the outcome).

I like to play 6-handed PLO. There's a lot more action, hand values go up, and you can pick up on other players' tendencies more quickly than at a full ring game. But whether one is playing full ring or short handed, it's amazing that you can fold for 3-4 orbits or more and still get lots of action when you finally do pot it.

Man, now I want to go play some PLO.

[luckychick]

Okay, I'm actually here to ask questions since we've seemed to capture the interest of some people. I've been playing in a home game that has both Omaha and O8 in it. I've been doing okay in it, but I'm sure I have a ton of holes. I haven't read any Omaha books, so this is just my own convoluted logic.

Q1. With a hand like OP's, I'll often won't even bother raising pf. Good/bad?

My rationale: If I'm in EP, then I can limp/re-raise in hopes of getting HU since an EP open raise tends to merely build a pot without really cutting people out; while simulataneously declaring my hand. If I'm in late position, I have a nice set (disguised over set?) to hit, and wrap possibilities. Two pair is probably going to be expensive so I'd rather not pad the pot. Plus with a smallish pot people are less likely to "take a stab" - maybe I get a free (or extremely cheap)card to hit my set or gutshot (which I hope makes the nuts - not that I normally draw to gutters in Omaha).

Critique away.

Q2. UTG+2 - What do you think of his action?

I probably would have folded his hand in his position after the first raise pf, especially after the action. (Maybe I would have made the initial limp - maybe not - depends on the typical action?) Reasons: I'm OOP to the original raiser for the rest of the hand, who may or may not 3 bet pf. I probably would have played if the 3 was an 8 or 9, and there was one FD possible. I probably would have made some sort of donkish bet on the flop given the action, although maybe I c/r.

[hardhouseinc]

Tough call on the flop yes, but the call with
UTG+2 shows 5 7 6 3 With an all in then a re - re pop is a HORENDOUS
call I think. This shows what people playing micro PLO are willing to do. Just ship
it with anything and play the lottery. I think he deserved to lose more.

E.

[imthatguy]

Q1. With a hand like OP's, I'll often won't even bother raising pf. Good/bad?

Exactly. Play this hand post flop and build a pot later. I rarely raise, 3bet, etc. pre-flop at PLO10.

Q2. UTG+2 - What do you think of his action?

Yeah, not the best play evar... I guess he's going after dead money, suspecting that whataboutj is repopping with AAxx and hoping to flop like he did.