Shortstackers.....yay or nay?

[StevenH72]

for years (2) I have absolutely hated shortstackers at tables, thought of them as the lowest of the low, the scum of society, the c**p I stood in today on my way to work.

But then I was talking to one of my friends whilst having a few post-work unwind drinks, and he was expressing his angst at struggling in cash games. He is a decent Tourney player, with a good win-rate, and solid strategy, but really struggles at cash.

This got me thinking about the different strategies, and one that I havent considered before is the different M's seen in both forms.

I mean he always buys in for 100BB's at a cash table (M of 66.67).

But in tournies I'd say the average M you will be playing with will be around 10-30.

So does it therefore make sense for tourney players, who occassonally enjoy playing cash to shortstack when they do play cash, to give them a more familiar M, and therefore similar strategy to playing tourney, or will having the rest of the table being relativey "big stacked" and playing to a different strategy too risky?

Im not endorsing this style, but rather opening it up for debate. So what are your thoughts on this?

[gman1973]

Short Staked and Min raise the crap out of em

[imthatguy]

I rarely buy in for the standard 100BB. I don't know what it is, partly it's my aversion to losing money in cash games I guess.

[mipevi]

I think shortstacking can be a good choice for the tournament player sitting at a cash table, unless that person wants to develop his postflop game. If the table has many larger stacks, the shortstacker will benefit because the large stacks will mostly play against other large stacks, and a normal play with large stack vs. large stack can become a mistake against a shortstacker who mostly wants to get all-in preflop or on the flop.

[JoseRijo]

I'd consider myself a tournament player (at least more so than cash). I always buy in for 100BBs, but I *love* seeing short stacks at my table. I definitely think I have an edge over them (at least at microstakes).

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by mipevi

I think shortstacking can be a good choice for the tournament player sitting at a cash table, unless that person wants to develop his postflop game. If the table has many larger stacks, the shortstacker will benefit because the large stacks will mostly play against other large stacks, and a normal play with large stack vs. large stack can become a mistake against a shortstacker who mostly wants to get all-in preflop or on the flop.

There is a "short stack cash game strategy" that is described in a book that I remember being discussed/reviewed on CT. Can't seem to find it in the search right now. Would help if I remembered who wrote it...

Anyway, the idea is you sit there and wait for a big pocket pair or AK, then push and hope somebody calls - preferably somebody you're dominating. As mentioned by mipevi, there's no post-flop strategy; strictly get it all in preflop and hope for the best. Apparently it's a decent way to build a bankroll.

Personally, I'm a 100xBB guy, and I look out for short stacks running this strategy and avoid getting into hands with them. If they're in the hand, they're either pushing preflop, or making a pre-flop raise to 25% of their stack so they push on any flop. So unless I have a hand that can beat some of their range (like AA or KK or QQ), then I fold pre-flop. No point in doubling them up. But ya, I see somebody buy in to the $25NL table with $5, fold everything, then push to get called by two idiots, he shows AA and triples up, then leaves the table and does it again somewhere else. Might not be pretty, but it works.

Now, not every short-stack does this. There are lots of donks that don't know what they're doing, don't want to "risk much", so they buy in for the minimum and play loose-passive. These guys are known as sushi. And I LOVE sushi!

[jojobinks]

deep stacks are always at a disadvantage to short stacks as long as there are only 1 or 2 shorties at the table and the rest are 100bb+.

basically, the deep stacks are playing a different game (one that includes pot odds and pot control with one pair type hands). example. at 1/2, 8 players have $200 and one player has $80.

the shorty is on the button, let's say. co+1 opens to $8 with 66, the co flats with JTs, and you're sitting with $80 on the button.

there's $19 in the pot with the blinds, and you have AKs. you've just been put in a position to play perfectly, b/c you have the perfect amount to shove with. the opener made a fine play if everyone had deep stacks. the co made a fine call considering they're deep stacked and he has implied odds et cetera. if you had $200 in this spot, AKs is kinda tricky. maybe you flat and see a flop. maybe you 3bet but will have to fold to a shove. either way you're put in a tricky spot. if you flat and the flop comes ace hi you're really deep to just go broke there all the time.

but now...woo baby it's a really really easy shove unless you think these guys are really nitty.

[ipgyst]

Originally Posted by jdunford

There is a "short stack cash game strategy" that is described in a book that I remember being discussed/reviewed on CT. Can't seem to find it in the search right now. Would help if I remembered who wrote it...

Ed Miller - Getting Started in Hold 'Em

He advocates a shortstacked-wait-for-a-great-hand-and-shove strategy for n00bs, then as you get better at reading people and making decisions, you add more hands to your repertoire.

[imthatguy]

Originally Posted by jdunford

But ya, I see somebody buy in to the $25NL table with $5, fold everything, then push to get called by two idiots, he shows AA and triples up, then leaves the table and does it again somewhere else. Might not be pretty, but it works.

Let it be known, I never play this shortstacked.

[siNdreAd]

Short-stacking is a viable way to play. There is a different strategy to it and it can be profitable for the right player. If it suits your friend's style, he will likely show better results with short stacking.

It's also generally accepted that if you're a good player with an edge on the table you should always full stack (which obviously would increase your profit from your edge). I think most good short stackers haven't developed the skills to play full but have found a way to earn money at the tables in a way that suits them, so they go with it.

Personally I'd do whatever earned me the most money and leave ego out of it. I find my ROI is highest by not playing .