[jmc]

I'm starting to get into O8 and was wondering what are good hands for me to get involved with. The games I would play would be against players with virtually no starting requirements (QJ63, AK97, QQ55, etc), so games tend to be very loose and donktastic both pre and postflop.

My current strategy is to play the following (assuming no raise):

A2xx
any 4 broadway [bad idea unless suited?]
AA+2 broadway
A3xx w/ suited ace
most A3xx in late position
23-wheel-x in late position

Works out to about 8% of all hands from early positions to about 16% in late position. Is this a good mix? Too loose? Too tight? Do I need additional ways to win with my A3x type hands (like A3-wheel or A3suited?)

[w16227]

Originally Posted by jmc

I'm starting to get into O8 and was wondering what are good hands for me to get involved with. The games I would play would be against players with virtually no starting requirements (QJ63, AK97, QQ55, etc), so games tend to be very loose and donktastic both pre and postflop.

My current strategy is to play the following (assuming no raise):

A2xx
any 4 broadway [bad idea unless suited?]
AA+2 broadway
A3xx w/ suited ace
most A3xx in late position
23-wheel-x in late position

Works out to about 8% of all hands from early positions to about 16% in late position. Is this a good mix? Too loose? Too tight? Do I need additional ways to win with my A3x type hands (like A3-wheel or A3suited?)

Not bad - a bit tight depending upon the game. ~ 20% is a decent overall VPIP for O8 - in LOOSE games (50%+ seeing the flop). The key always is to have or be drawing to one of the nut hands. In the loose games, scooping is less important than in tough ones. Still the best - but since 4-5 hands make it to the river many times, even half the pot can turn a tidy profit.

Also (in loose games), the amount of hands played really should not depend entirely on a raised or unraised pot. Broad generalization here - but most weak players are calling one raise pf regardless (assuming that they were playing the hand anyway). This is also an opportunity to make some extra bets if the right situation presents itself. Say you have 4 broadway with position on the preflop field - (like button, co or even the blinds). UTG raises - and there are three callers. What should you do? Raise of course. The raise with several callers is a decent sign that a lot of low cards are out there already and the flop will come high. Even better if an A hits - because this gives the weaker players an excuse to call to the river with TP or some other substandard hand (all depends on what you hit, of course).

Other floater hands that will be +ev - but might be somewhat thin to play when starting O8 - any AA, any KK (looking for sets), any suited A, any three to a 6 (because the 6 high straight can get paid when the wheel hits).

Ray Zee has a great book on beginning O8 strat.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by w16227

Say you have 4 broadway with position on the preflop field - (like button, co or even the blinds). UTG raises - and there are three callers. What should you do? Raise of course. The raise with several callers is a decent sign that a lot of low cards are out there already and the flop will come high.

Where did you get that from, Matasow? A legit UTG raise would invovle AA or A2 -- however in my experience the three callers can have almost any combination of 4 cards. Also, I've seen people raise with from the blinds w/ QQ55 (tilty pot builder) and UTG w/ AcJcTc5h (???). Seriously -- the people I play against really don't understand preflop hand selection!

[w16227]

Originally Posted by jmc

Where did you get that from, Matasow? A legit UTG raise would invovle AA or A2 -- however in my experience the three callers can have almost any combination of 4 cards. Also, I've seen people raise with from the blinds w/ QQ55 (tilty pot builder) and UTG w/ AcJcTc5h (???). Seriously -- the people I play against really don't understand preflop hand selection!

depends on your definition of legit

AA/A2 and what else?

This is definitely a Matasau move - along with mentions in Capalletti and various articles I have read. Matasau is also one of the best O8 players out there- so I would not dismiss it.

Even if they do not have sound starting hand strategy, it also works- as you should be playing higher quality starting hands than the opposition. QQ55 raises with three callers and you are on the button? Raise away with AKTJ. Yes - you may have some outs compromised, but you are way +EV over the field IF you make decent post flop decisions. If you are playing better cards and strategy than the field - it is ok to jam the pots more preflop.

Ask Abby99 (she may chime in at some point). I have played several live sessions with her and friends. She always remarks about my PF aggression (I rarely play without a raise). This is due to many factors - but mostly because I know that I will make better decisions both pre and post-flop than the field. If I have AA23 UTG- I raise into these loose weak games. In a strong game? Depends on the players as I want to be paid with the monster. Online at an aggressive table? I am good with tightening up and letting the maniacs bet for me.


A quick edit - in the one example - QQ55 vs 4 broadway, I was claiming +EV. In reality, these hands are very close in EV with the double pair a bit ahead depending on suited status. What I mean by +EV is that your postflop play against weaker players will make the difference in profitability. Straight calculations are not how O8 is won or lost - as most starting hands are not huge favorites over the others.

[abby99]

Originally Posted by w16227

depends on your definition of legit

AA/A2 and what else?

This is definitely a Matasau move - along with mentions in Capalletti and various articles I have read. Matasau is also one of the best O8 players out there- so I would not dismiss it.

Even if they do not have sound starting hand strategy, it also works- as you should be playing higher quality starting hands than the opposition. QQ55 raises with three callers and you are on the button? Raise away with AKTJ. Yes - you may have some outs compromised, but you are way +EV over the field IF you make decent post flop decisions. If you are playing better cards and strategy than the field - it is ok to jam the pots more preflop.

Ask Abby99 (she may chime in at some point). I have played several live sessions with her and friends. She always remarks about my PF aggression (I rarely play without a raise). This is due to many factors - but mostly because I know that I will make better decisions both pre and post-flop than the field. If I have AA23 UTG- I raise into these loose weak games. In a strong game? Depends on the players as I want to be paid with the monster. Online at an aggressive table? I am good with tightening up and letting the maniacs bet for me.


A quick edit - in the one example - QQ55 vs 4 broadway, I was claiming +EV. In reality, these hands are very close in EV with the double pair a bit ahead depending on suited status. What I mean by +EV is that your postflop play against weaker players will make the difference in profitability. Straight calculations are not how O8 is won or lost - as most starting hands are not huge favorites over the others.

It should come as no surprise that w16227 didn't leave much for me to add to this discussion.

In a full ring game, I want to play hands where all four hole cards work together, and in early position I want to open with hands that will stand up to a raise or a reraise.

I definitely agree with the strategy of playing Broadway cards aggressively when there's a lot of pre-flop action by players who normally get frisky only with A2xx, all small. If three opponents are holding 12 of the low cards, the flop is more likely to help me than them, although I'll be watching out for flush possibilities because one or more of their aces will often be suited.

Good luck, and enjoy the game.

[beekeeper]

Well, I'm no expert and my experience is limited to FT $2 sit & gos, but at a full table, like abby and "w" say, you want to be drawing to the nuts. Having the absolute nuts on the flop is a TRAP!

Towards that end, unless I'm in the blind or have position, I like to have a hand that has 2 of the following going for it:

nut low possibilities (A23)
double suited with at least one A
wrap-connectedness (10-J-Q-K)


If I'm in position, I may call with only 1 of the above qualities if I also have:

a high pair
middle connectness (5-6-7-8 )
a 23 (but no A)


A book that I read said that you should avoid middle connectedness because you will often flop or turn the nuts, but will not be drawing to the nuts. I think this is good advice. My limited experience has taught me that you can play such hands only if you are able to fold a made straight when (1) the board pairs, (2) there's 2-3 of a suit on the turn or 3 of a suit on the river, (3) the turn or river brings a 1 card higher straight possibility.

Of all the qualities that are important, I find that double-suitedness with Aces is the most valuable because, while you may often split the nut low, you will always scoop the nut high if it's a flush. Keep in mind, however, that having AA and being double-suited becomes meaningless on a rainbow board, esp with low cards. People will jam you because they're free rolling on a low and drawing to straights that will beat you. In other words, you have to be able to fold the flop regardless of the pot size.

I do find that a 2-3 or 2-3-4 can often be just as good as an A2 or A3 for a couple of reasons. First, in a multiway pot preflop, you can count on more than one player having an A with a low card. If an A flops, those hands are counterfeited, and if there are low possibilities, you're in a better position to have the nut low (because it's rare that a player is dealt A23).

The most important things I would say is that (1) be willing and able to fold on the flop if you aren't drawing to the either nuts (and if only 1 low card flops, you're not drawing to a low anymore), (2) remember that it is possible to split the low 1, 2, 3 and even 4 ways. If you're not going to scoop the low, it may cost you money to continue in a hand even if you have the nut low. (3) Most players don't know how to play and will stay in with hands that are good in hold'em, and therefore will draw out on you. When the board pairs or 3 suits come up, count on someone making a boat or a flush, and throw your baby flushes and straights away.

You win in 08 by letting go of marginal hands early and losing the minimum, and by scooping and maximizing your wins. Also, you are more severely punished for chasing in 08 than you are in hold'em.

Finally, when the table is shorthanded (6 or less), IMHO good low starting hands become more valuable and can be bet for value preflop. At a full table I usually just call with good low hands for a couple of reasons. First, someone always raises preflop, so a pot will be built regardless, and you disguise the strength of your hand. Secondly, if a favorable flop comes, anyone with an A or 2 or 3 (or even 4) in their hand will start jamming, and you can reraise and build a huge pot. If an unfavorable (to low) flop comes, you can let it go without too much invested. Since the low can often be chopped, it becomes more imperative to minimize your losses with low draws.

[jmc]

Great advice guys! Thanks!

[Harlequin011]

A2 an o8 hand, does not make. - Yoda

whats the game like? How many are going to showdown. If you are seeing 3 or more after the turn and river then you can get in there and play that. For instance... A289 w/o a suited A is a puker.

My 08 game is 180 degrees of my hold-em game. Tight is right, and you're off to a decent start. If the game is real tight, I'm not playing A2 with two rags or 4 broadway. An ace is your Am-ex card. Don't leave home without it. But leave yourself a chance to win.

Your openers are good in loose games however.

[w16227]

Lots of good stuff -

Harlequin makes a great point - in that the looseness of the game opens up more hands to play from any position - but they are death in tight games. "Any A2" is not what you want UTG - if the game is strong/tight as you have a one way hand.

Position matters a lot more in tight games - then the A2xx hands are more playable as you can most likely isolate the BB with a raise - though you have to be confident in your ability to outplay the field to go the aggressive route.

Beekeeper posted a wrap hand 5678 that warrants discussion.

This is not a good multiway hand- and in a tight game you would want to play from the button or CU if at all (more for steal value). 7s, 8s, and 9s are all trap cards in O8.

To expand on BKs thoughts - if you hit the nut straight on the flop, then there is a redraw to a higher straight out there. But - what else is out there? - the low. Even if the flop gives you a perfect 569 or 67T, there is a low draw running. In all likelyhood, you are playing for half a pot and limiting your redraws (your redraws are typically to a better high).

Worst case is you get two make lows with redraws against you - and now you are whiplashed and outdrawn on a significant % of the time. If you can isolate 1/2 players - then maybe with position, but the general rule of thumb is that the middle cards (789) are death to a hand.

Always exceptions - like A( 2or3 )78 with a suited A, as you now have a nut low draw to add to the mix.

789T? JUNK

[beekeeper]

Originally Posted by w16227

Beekeeper posted a wrap hand 5678 that warrants discussion.

This is not a good multiway hand- and in a tight game you would want to play from the button or CU if at all (more for steal value). 7s, 8s, and 9s are all trap cards in O8.



789T? JUNK

I agree.

The only time I would play something like 5678 is when I'm in position. Once in a while all low cards come and many people playing low cards will also make a straight and think they have a sweep. Sometimes you can win half of a sizeable pot by scooping the hi while multiple lows are jamming the pot. But I insta-fold this hand preflop if I'm out of position, and on the flop if the flop is not a bunch of babies.