[shanghai_sparky]

Please discuss actions of both players involved.

PokerStars Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25)
Table 'Nerthus' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: ($8.70 in chips)
Seat 3: ($12.05 in chips)
Seat 4: ($20.20 in chips)
Seat 5: ($16.35 in chips)
Seat 6: ($2.75 in chips)
Seat 7: ($14.50 in chips)
Seat 8: ($14.95 in chips)
Seat 9: ($15.70 in chips)

Seat 7: posts small blind $0.10
Seat 8: posts big blind $0.25

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Seat 9: [ ] raises $0.25 to $0.50
Seat 2: folds Seat 3: folds
Seat 4: [ ] raises $2 to $2.50
Seat 5: folds Seat 6: folds Seat 7: folds Seat 8: folds
Seat 9: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Seat 9: checks
Seat 4: bets $2.50
Seat 9: calls $2.50
*** TURN *** []
Seat 9: checks
Seat 4: bets $15.20 and is all-in
Seat 9: calls $10.70 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($4.50) returned to Seat 4.
*** RIVER *** []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Seat 9: shows [ ] (a flush, Ace high)
Seat 4: shows [ ] (a full house, Kings full of Threes)
Seat 4 collected $30.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.75 | Rake $1.55
Board [ ]
Seat 4: showed Kh Kc and won ($30.20) with a full house, Kings full of Threes
Seat 9: showed 2s As and lost with a flush, Ace high

[Poboy]

They are both dumb.
Seat 9 shouldn't be raising UTG, and shouldn't be min raising [EDIT: or calling the RR]. Seat 4 should be betting more than $2.50 on the flop. If seat 9 is willing to get all-in on the turn w/1 card to come w/GS+FD, he should raise the flop.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by shanghai_sparky

Please discuss actions of both players involved.

Seat 9 = donk, and the poker gods served up a big scoop of "justice" on this hand.

I *HATE* it when I'm the guy with the flopped set, and some donk calls my all-in with nothing but a flush draw to suck out on me...

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by Poboy

They are both dumb.
Seat 9 shouldn't be raising UTG, and shouldn't be min raising. Seat 4 should be betting more than $2.50 on the flop. If seat 9 is willing to get all-in on the turn w/1 card to come w/GS+FD, he should raise the flop.

I understand your point, but I can understand seat 4's play. He wants to disguise his hand, see what his opponent has, etc. By only calling the $2.50, it looks like seat 9 is on a draw; he probably would have raised with any made hand in that situation. In fact, seat 9 might have put 4 on a smaller (K-high) flush draw after that flop bet, making him think he might actually be ahead in the hand, and that the all-in on the turn was an act of desperation.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by jdunford

Seat 9 = donk, and the poker gods served up a big scoop of "justice" on this hand.

I *HATE* it when I'm the guy with the flopped set, and some donk calls my all-in with nothing but a flush draw to suck out on me...

Couldn't agree more. Seat is a hopeless. UTG mini raise actually says it all.
preflop reraise was okay with KK but I also have to agree that the bet on the flop was not enough.
If you know (by that UTG mini raise) that your opponent is that weak you should be aware that these .... call you down with any kind of "potential hand".
I hate these draw chasers.
Well, he also had one over

Originally Posted by jdunford

I understand your point, but I can understand seat 9's play. He wants to disguise his hand, see what his opponent has, etc. By only calling the $2.50, it looks like seat 4 is on a draw; he probably would have raised with any made hand in that situation. In fact, seat 4 might have put 9 on a smaller (K-high) flush draw after that flop bet, making him think he might actually be ahead in the hand, and that the all-in on the turn was an act of desperation.

you switched the seats here. The flush draw was calling on the flop.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by Vince

you switched the seats here. The flush draw was calling on the flop.

ty sir.

[osumike11379]

Seat #9 played this like a complete donk - As far as the guy with KK I thought his play was fine but I probably would have overbet the pot on the flop to prevent Eeyore the donkey from hitting his flush draw

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by jdunford

I understand your point, but I can understand seat 4's play. He wants to disguise his hand, see what his opponent has, etc. By only calling the $2.50, it looks like seat 9 is on a draw; he probably would have raised with any made hand in that situation. In fact, seat 9 might have put 4 on a smaller (K-high) flush draw after that flop bet, making him think he might actually be ahead in the hand, and that the all-in on the turn was an act of desperation.

Here's what I don't like about the bet size. The case K will call a bigger bet. AA will call a bigger bet, as might QQ - TT. The FD will probably call a bigger bet, making a bigger mistake. It's a RRed pot so the SD is not a big worry, but a BD one w/an A is possible, which would induce a call a little more.

The flop bet is not really bad, we get a pot sized shove on the turn, but we can induce bigger mistakes, then kind of trap someone into calling w/an all in on the turn giving better odds that a pot size bet. Really, no non-idiot would call the turn shove w/GS+FD on a pot sized bet. But, make it $4 on the flop, and then the turn bet is what, ~$8 into a ~$13 pot? Still bad for him with only one card to come. Much easier to call though. Even w/something like QQ which you destroy.

Originally Posted by osumike11379

Seat #9 played this like a complete donk - As far as the guy with KK I thought his play was fine but I probably would have overbet the pot on the flop to prevent Eeyore the donkey from hitting his flush draw

We want him to call. We want to dbl up with our big hands, and rarely do we do that and the opponent has nothing.

[nelohalo]

The UTG player was gambling to begin with. Thats his choice, it is not a profitable play in general but it could be a good play every once in a while. If he's going to raise I'd make it larger, but he's lucky he didn't because of the kings behind him. Calling the 2 bucks is a good play because that is what the proper raise is to begin with. It is possible he knew that if he was raised it would likely be bumped to around 2 dollars, so he could be playing the table's tendencies.

On the flop I would generally move in with the hand. Unless the other player flopped a big king, has aces, or flopped a set, he will not be able to call. If he does, you have the nut flush draw, an inside straight draw, and an overcard. Thats 16 outs twice, I think that makes you a small favorite or even money.

Seat 9 played his draw conservatively by checking and calling instead of leading or check-raising. Seat 4 played as if he wanted a call on the flop, but not on the turn. Well, that usually doesn't work given these stack sizes relative to the bets. The pot was too big and player 9 had too big a draw to fold for 10 dollars more, and he was correct to call all in* (even though he should have been betting his stack and not calling with it).

*Math: 16 outs/44 unseen cards = 36/100 = 2/1 , ~$20 in pot/$10 call = 2/1
Note that seat 9 didn't actually have all those outs, but he thought he did.

Seat 4 made the errors in this hand, and was fortunate to not double up seat 9. The raise pre-flop was too small, a big pair needs to get rid of other hands so they cannot see a flop like this. A raise to 3.50 or 4 dollars would have been as effective at getting rid of the other players as what he did raise, but seat 9 would now have a tough time playing. Seat 4 would be saying 'I have a really big hand here, if you want to draw it will cost you a significant portion of your stack'. In addition, on the flop seat 4 only bet a small amount of money that he probably wanted to be called. This is a mistake that he probably realized after getting over the delight of making top set, with kings no less. I say this because on the turn he bet everything he had instead of trying to milk more money from seat 9. The 8 is not a scare card, and you cannot really put someone on the heart flush draw all of the sudden. He likely thought that the call on the flop, without being reraised before the flop, meant that seat 9 was drawing at something, be it a straight or more likely the flush. He now overcompensated the small bet on the flop with the biggest bet he could make, and seat 9, who was gambling to begin with, was getting two to one on his call. For someone in the gambling mood to begin with, this was an easy call.

The pre-flop reraise is forgiveable, and not a big mistake. The only bad play in this hand was betting 2.50 on the flop. That pretty much sealed things for both players. Seat 9 was unlikely to fold at any point after the flop, and seat 4 just juiced the pot up for him a bit more. The kings decided to try to shut out a flush draw on the turn, but the flop bet made the call too appealing to the gambling seat 9.

The kings were played too slowly on the flop, is what I'm getting at

Did anyone actually read that? Its probably all wrong

[shanghai_sparky]

Originally Posted by nelohalo

The pre-flop reraise is forgiveable, and not a big mistake. The only bad play in this hand was betting 2.50 on the flop. That pretty much sealed things for both players. Seat 9 was unlikely to fold at any point after the flop, and seat 4 just juiced the pot up for him a bit more. The kings decided to try to shut out a flush draw on the turn, but the flop bet made the call too appealing to the gambling seat 9.

The kings were played too slowly on the flop, is what I'm getting at

Fortunately, I was seat 4 and won. However, I played the same silly way as seat 9 and both won and (mostly) lost in those situations.
I agree about the small reraise, it was too small. Seat 9 was playing loose, but not overly aggressive, hence the small raise. In the past, I made large raises with kings, only to have some fool with A-3 os flop an ace and hammer my stack.
The flop did scare me due to the number of players I see call raises with any suited face cards. The small bet was a feeler to see if he was drawing at something. After the 8 hit, that's when I decided to put the question to him.
I almost soiled myself when I saw the river spade.
It was only when the chips came my way that I realized that the board paired for me.

Thanks for the input.

[BassVillan]

seat 9 is def' Eeyore the Donk. If he wants to gamble then he should get it in on the flop. I don't partlicularly dislike his flop call but think i would've stuffed/raised the flop and in his case folded on the turn. I love the river, I love the justice.