[jdunford]

Lately, I've seen this play more and more at the 6-max 10¢/25¢ tables online and I don't get it. In short, a player with a small pocket pair pushes on an innocent-looking board after missing the flop completely (has 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th pair on the flop). I made a comment after the following hands, and a player tried to explain it to me. First, the sample hands:

#Game No : 6757678365
***** Hand History for Game 6757678365 *****
$25 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, February 06, 01:02:01 ET 2008
Table Table 125385 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: MTL77755 ( $9.81 USD )
Seat 4: nature00 ( $37.59 USD )
Seat 1: iNano78 ( $26.92 USD )
Seat 6: rikisoprano ( $8.51 USD )
Seat 5: shoeyg ( $25.81 USD )
Seat 2: samsquatch99 ( $22.10 USD )
rikisoprano posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
iNano78 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to iNano78 [ ]
samsquatch99 folds
MTL77755 calls [$0.25 USD]
nature00 calls [$0.25 USD]
shoeyg calls [$0.25 USD]
rikisoprano calls [$0.15 USD]
iNano78 raises [$1.75 USD]
MTL77755 calls [$1.75 USD]
nature00 folds
shoeyg calls [$1.75 USD]
rikisoprano folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
iNano78 bets [$4.50 USD] * I'd been showing down nothing but high pocket pairs whenever I bet like this, so I thought I might get credit for it.
MTL77755 calls [$4.50 USD]
shoeyg calls [$4.50 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
iNano78 checks
MTL77755 is all-In [$3.31 USD]
shoeyg is all-In [$19.31 USD]
iNano78 folds
** Dealing River ** [ ]
MTL77755 shows [ , ]a pair of Fives.
shoeyg shows [ , ]a pair of Fours.
shoeyg wins $16 USD from side pot #1 with a pair of Fours.
MTL77755 wins $25.29 USD from the main pot with a pair of Fives.
rikisoprano has left the table.

In hindsight, I probably should have fired again on the turn (?)

Anyway a few hands (2.5 minutes) later, same table, different opponent, slightly different play/result, but similar idea:

#Game No : 6757680376
***** Hand History for Game 6757680376 *****
$25 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, February 06, 01:04:49 ET 2008
Table Table 125385 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 3: MTL77755 ( $24.29 USD )
Seat 4: nature00 ( $38.73 USD )
Seat 1: iNano78 ( $20.42 USD )
Seat 5: shoeyg ( $15.25 USD )
Seat 2: samsquatch99 ( $22.33 USD )
nature00 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
shoeyg posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to iNano78 [ ]
iNano78 calls [$0.25 USD]
samsquatch99 folds
MTL77755 folds
nature00 raises [$1.40 USD]
shoeyg calls [$1.25 USD]
iNano78 calls [$1.25 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
nature00 bets [$4 USD]
shoeyg folds
iNano78 raises [$12 USD]
nature00 calls [$8 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
nature00 bets [$1.50 USD]
iNano78 is all-In [$6.92 USD]
nature00 calls [$5.42 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
nature00 shows [ , ]a pair of Threes.
iNano78 shows [ , ]three of a kind, Fours.
iNano78 wins $40.34 USD from the main pot with three of a kind, Fours.

I've recently posted 2 other hands that were very similar to these, where a player pushes with a small pocket pair that is lower than (at least some of) the board:
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/703220-post28.html (AA gets cracked by 55 after pushing)
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/chipta...-win-chip.html

I asked, "Why do I see so many people push or call all-in with under-pairs?" To summarize the discussion that followed, one player said there is a "new" strategy in a book and/or online forum that supposedly argues it is +EV to push on the flop or turn when you have a small PP that completely misses the board. I assume this requires a read on your opponent that suggests weakness. He argued that, often enough, you'll get hands that would ordinarily float the flop (A+overcard), plus some that hit it weakly (top-pair-bad-kicker, middle or bottom pairs) to fold often enough that it's profitable. And if you suck out and catch your 2-outer, you'll put your opponent on tilt and be able to take more money off him in the next few orbits.

I think it's crap. I mean, I understand the value of semi-bluffing, but with at best a 2-outer? Unless of course your opponent has a smaller underpair or is someone who would call an all-in with overcards... Anyway, I'd love to hear some comments on this "strategy".

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by jdunford

I've recently posted 2 other hands that were very similar to these, where a player pushes with a small pocket pair that is lower than (at least some of) the board:
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/703220-post28.html (AA gets cracked by 55 after pushing)
http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/chipta...-win-chip.html

By the way, I've come to refer to this as the "sushi" play. Right after someone pushes or calls all-in and loses with an underpair, I just type "sushi" into the chat line. I got to do this 3 times last night.

[whataboutj]

It's interesting that you started this thread as I was victim of the underpair play twice last night - once in full ring game and once in an MTT.

I kinda get the cash game play (even though I completely disagree with it), but why do it in a tourney?

I have noticed a lot more "Pushing" after the flop in tournies too. It has actually been a good thing for me because of the TAG style I usually play, but I found it strange.

BTW- I think I have played atthe same tabel as you when I have ventured into the $.10/$.25 world. Can you give me my money back ??

[Wooderson]

I thought the title of this thread said, "Pushing with underpants."

That is all.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by whataboutj

BTW- I think I have played atthe same tabel as you when I have ventured into the $.10/$.25 world. Can you give me my money back ??

Really? What's your handle? You on Party or P*? I haven't had time for P* lately, as I'm trying to get my Party account back up to where it was in November before I cash out permanently. Had a very bad day over the Christmas holidays (the one where I lost my starting stack with AA 12 times).

I'd be very surprised if I've taken any of your money... at least lately... as I've pretty much been treading water. I can typically work a $25 buy-in up to $70-$80 in under an hour, then lose it all in 2 hands when I get dealt AA or flop top-two-pair to somebody who catches a runner-runner straight, etc.

If you want to get your money back, just wait for me to push with AA... especially if you have QJ. I don't think I've ever beat QJ with AA at showdown! AA is still my worst hand in terms of EV (hasn't been changing lately, as it's still a "steal the blinds or lose my stack" hand). Just watch out for when I get QTo, as I'm +12xBB (i.e. +$3 on average) with that combo!

[jojobinks]

i think this thing is a symptom of everyone always putting everyone on AK. the flop comes 379 and so they just assume you missed. generally speaking it's pretty retarded, and absent other information (like you play every hand, or stacks are very shallow and it's a stop n go) it's usually a spew.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

i think this thing is a symptom of everyone always putting everyone on AK.

+1. Bless the morons.


Also, raise prf in hand 2. I know what you have every time you limp there.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by Poboy

Also, raise prf in hand 2. I know what you have every time you limp there.

Maybe, but you weren't at the table.
My play worked just fine on this piece of sushi. Besides, I occasionally limp with high suited connectors/gappers (JTs, QJs, QT, KJ) from any position, too, so I don't always have a small pair. Raising UTG with a small pair and/or re-raising with it is usually trouble at an uber-loose/aggressive table.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by jdunford

Besides, I occasionally limp with high suited connectors/gappers (JTs, QJs, QT, KJ) from any position, too, so I don't always have a small pair.

I know. your limp = small pair or SCs. What you do on the flop+what it is will tell me all I need to know. You're exploitable.

[jdunford]

This isn't quite as bad as the hands in the OP (at least this guy had 2nd pair on the flop), but I just had to brag... I practically told this guy what my hand was... I love playing against uber-aggressive players who just don't know when they're beat!

#Game No : 6775729340
***** Hand History for Game 6775729340 *****
$25 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, February 12, 00:26:44 ET 2008
Table Table 130253 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: CrabGuy008 ( $38.58 USD )
Seat 4: Uschi110 ( $55.72 USD )
Seat 6: ssppiikkee ( $25 USD )
Seat 2: iNano78 ( $58.53 USD )
Seat 3: ratface ( $24.50 USD )
Seat 5: martinbsmith ( $20.75 USD )
ratface posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Uschi110 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to iNano78 [ ]
martinbsmith raises [$1.25 USD]
ssppiikkee folds
CrabGuy008 folds
iNano78 calls [$1.25 USD]
ratface calls [$1.15 USD]
Uschi110 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
ratface checks
martinbsmith bets [$1.50 USD]
iNano78 raises [$4.50 USD] Time to scare away 'dem flush draws (or make 'em pay to draw)
ratface folds
martinbsmith calls [$3 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
martinbsmith checks
iNano78 bets [$7 USD] Well, if he won't represent the made flush, then I will.
martinbsmith calls [$7 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
martinbsmith is all-In [$8 USD]
iNano78 calls [$8 USD] Tee hee hee.
martinbsmith shows [ , ]two pairs, Tens and Nines. That's it?!
iNano78 shows [ , ]a flush, Ace high.
iNano78 wins $40.85 USD from the main pot with a flush, Ace high.
Game #6775729952 starts.
...
iNano78: that's right; you were beat when you sat down
...
martinbsmith has left the table.