[Captaincuba]

Two interesting hands from the Borgata:

Hand 1:

Hero is SB with $220.00 holding AcQc

There are 4 limpers and I notice the BB reaching for chips so I just limp.

Villain is BB with around $300.00.

She raises to $15.00, gets two callers, I call.

Flop is Ad, Qh, 2s

I check, Villain leads out for $50.00, one caller, I call.

Turn is a brick. I check, villain leads out for $125.00, others fold to me, I shove. She calls and tables AhAs.

There was no way I could put her on AA with an out of position $10.00 raise. I think this is a go broke hand.

Hand 2:

Hero has $220.00 with 10s8s in BB

Villain has me covered, raises to $15.00 in middle position. Two callers to me, I call.

Flop is: 9s, 7h, As

I check my monster draw, Villain bets $25.00, gets 1 caller, I raise to $100.00.

Villain shoves, I call.

Villain tables AdAh

7d on turn ends me. I can't put him on AA here, I thought maybe AK, AQ so I figured my big raise would get him off those hands. Did I overplay my monster draw here? Or was this another go broke hand?

Thanks as always,

CC

[Poboy]

Hand 1, we have a bad beat forum. Also, raise preflop. I hate the limp.

Hand 2, shove on the check raise. Pot is $85 to you, if I count right.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Poboy

Hand 1, we have a bad beat forum. Also, raise preflop. I hate the limp.

Hand 2, shove on the check raise. Pot is $85 to you, if I count right.

yeah.

ps: when you post results you get less/worse discussion. try leaving them out.

[dad604]

#1. Think it is a flop to go broke. I might have raised and see if BB reraises, if she reraises, then you can figure she has great hand.

#2. I might have fold pf to a raise with T8s.

Looks like players there don't raise to much with AA. 3x is ok without limpers but usually rule is add extra for each limper. But I have seen enough players raise small with AA to suck others in.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by dad604

#1. Think it is a flop to go broke. I might have raised and see if BB reraises, if she reraises, then you can figure she has great hand.

#2. I might have flop pf to a raise with T8s.

Looks like players there don't raise to much with AA. 3x is ok without limpers but usually rule is add extra for each limper. But I have seen enough players raise small with AA to suck others in.

I agree with #1. If you get reraised with AQ you might be able to get away from it cheap Otherwise -- you've flopped top two pair on an otherwise dry board. You're only beaten by AA, QQ and you tie AQ. The pot is $70 and you have about $200 left. If you have a read that your opponent is very tight, and wouldn't bet the turn without at least AQ, then that's your only chance to fold, otherwise just suck it up to variance.

#2 There's an ace out there and there's a good chance the PRF has one. $60 in the pot and you have about $200 in your stack. I guess you're a drawing favorite over something like AK and wouldn't mind the action.

[Clipper]

Hand #1

Don't be so fast to dismiss this as a "nothing I could do, go-broke hand". Typically, a raise from one of the blinds after multiple limpers implies great strength. In my not so humble opinion, this should be respected along the same lines as an early position raise. Ii doubt she was sophisticated enough to make a pot-sweetener raise with a small-medium pair. Would you cold-call an EP raise with AQ? I would not; unless it was a quite loose player. I don't care what this does to possible card combinations (you hold an A), there is a very good chance she holds AA, KK, or QQ; or AK. There are many very good cash game players who would dump this hand in a heartbeat. If you knew she was going to raise (as you claimed you suspected) you should have limp-folded. Or, you could have raised yourself. If she had it she would likely reraise.

In cash games with a decent stack and blinds making up a small percentage of your stack, why get involved when there is a decent chance you are taking the worst of it? What is the penalty for folding? You simply lose your blind money (which was not yours anyway since it was in the pot).


Hand 2

Aggressive play of draws (with the exeption of monster draws such as a str8 flush, flush with overs or flush with pair, etc.) is vastly overated in lower stakes games. I keep telling you guys, these donks are not smart enough to fold when you are potentially threatening their stack and they hold top pair. Especially in a live game at lowish limits! Why swim upstream? You can make very good money in these games by waiting for a decided advantage hand and taking their money! You should have never seen the flop with this suited gapper. Lower NL games are actually not a good situation to play draws aggressively - usually you will be faced with a poor risk-reward scenario to see the next card. And you were out of position to boot. Of course the argument could be made for just calling the flop bet due to implied odds (very conceiled hand, good money behind the opponent, likely top pair hand).

In Supersystem, pushing draws looks like such a superior play (at least the way Doyle tells it). But when Doyle wrote that, power poker was much more effective. People are so aggressive these days, and likewise they suspect aggression from opponents. Even in Doyle's book, he says that there is no way he puts a penny in the pot bluffing a bad player. Think about it: At this low limit cash game, I am certain there were bad players at the table. And I seriously doubt your opponent could be classified as a good/skilled player. Why stick your money in when you are a 2-1 dog and your opponent very likely has top pair?

[Clipper]

Correction on Hand 2

I see you had a straight flush draw. This is a hand to play very aggressively. I lost a pot last night in a similar situation (str8 flush draw ). Although when somebody will likely call you, you are still getting into a coinflip situation (which as I contend is not desirable if you are at a table of weak live players who are not going to lay down a good top pair or overpair hand).

In my hand, I was in LP with 68h (I had posted the blind after just getting into game). Flop came 5h, 7d, and Jh. 4 players checked and I bet the pot. I was checkraised, but getting almost 2-1 to call. Easy call. A push would be acceptable with the extra money in pot, but does a checkraise imply that he will fold? I don't think so. On turn, he bet enough to again give me almost 2-1 odds. With the money behind, this was a value-call. Turn was a blank and I folded to an allin bet. If I hit (especially the str I would have gotten the rest of his chips - he probably had 2 pair or a set. I salvaged around 2/3 of my stack. If I had pushed, I would have been a slight favorite, he would almost certainly have called me (he checkraised me from blinds with likely 2 pair or set), and I would have been felted. I don't like the way this hand played out. I think long-term the optimal play would be to check against multiple potential checkraisers. Sure, I could have folded the 4 players if nobody had anything - wuhoo! I would have won a smallish pot. I was getting kick-a*s odds to just take a card off.

Bad beat stories with these types of hands always go "but I had a str8 flush draw!".

[Clipper]

You might as well "chime in" (you know who I am talking about). No sense just watching, when you could tell me what a donk I am.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by Clipper

Hand #1

Don't be so fast to dismiss this as a "nothing I could do, go-broke hand". Typically, a raise from one of the blinds after multiple limpers implies great strength. In my not so humble opinion, this should be respected along the same lines as an early position raise. Ii doubt she was sophisticated enough to make a pot-sweetener raise with a small-medium pair. Would you cold-call an EP raise with AQ? I would not; unless it was a quite loose player. I don't care what this does to possible card combinations (you hold an A), there is a very good chance she holds AA, KK, or QQ; or AK. There are many very good cash game players who would dump this hand in a heartbeat. If you knew she was going to raise (as you claimed you suspected) you should have limp-folded. Or, you could have raised yourself. If she had it she would likely reraise.

There are lots of people who raise after limpers are in, either to steal all those bb's, or they figure their KJ type hand is good because no one raised.
Regardless, if you raise preflop with what is likely the best hand, then you probably get re-raised. Then you can fold.

In cash games with a decent stack and blinds making up a small percentage of your stack, why get involved when there is a decent chance you are taking the worst of it? What is the penalty for folding? You simply lose your blind money (which was not yours anyway since it was in the pot).

The penalty for folding what is likely the best hand is losing whatever EV you had.

Hand 2

You corrected. An open ender + FD is no hand to fold, and given the stack/pot size, the check raise should be all-in. It also gives you a bit more fold equity v. TP hands.

[Clipper]

I am fine with him raising all-in with the str8 flush draw. In the example I gave, I was checkraised by a blind, so he was not going anywhere. I was better off calling with decent implied odds to catch. If he had led out with a bet, I may very well have pushed. I know that if there is money in the pot and you are a slight favorite that pushing is ok.

The downside with this approach though is that you may not actually be a favorite. What if you opponent has a set? The danger increases the more players are involved in the hand. Then he has lot's of outs to fill on turn or river. What if your opponent is pushing a larger flush draw with a pair. If these conditions exist, you are getting your money in without being a favorite (then youre not 50% to win because many outs are counterfeited). And if you have many chips, you are courting a huge variance in results.

I have pushed many times with big draws. It is not all a bed of roses. The real value of pushing draws can be had if you also push with very strong made hands as well. Then you may (if opponents are observant - lol) have tremendous fold-equity. But do you want to risk chasing out a donk by pushing with top set or something. I don't. So my pushes with big draws is then exposed (because I would only do it with the big draw). Against the typical lower limit opponents (say $1-2 online, or $3-5 live), the fold equity, in my opinion is often not there. Many are incapable of laying down top pair or an overpair. Again, swimming upstream. If you are getting approx. 2-1 or better, and have a conceiled draw (a gapper connnector), then I favor calling if it closes action.

Also, another rarely discussed topic is that, by pushing, you have folded an opponent who may have lost all of his chips if you connect with the draw and extract more on turn and river. I know, this is a deep thought, but there are times when it is true, especially if the pot you pushed him/her out of was relatively small vs. the size of the stacks. Now if there is substantial money in pot, I am pushing in a heartbeat. But often it just depends. The insta-push with a big draw is simply bad poker.