[Clipper]

Here is the situation (this hand has bugged me for months). I was playing in an evening tourney at Bellagio during a WPT tourament series. I had won my seat into this $1,080 buy-in tourney through a satellite earlier that day. This is not a WPT event, but there are some name players in the tourney.

My initial T5,000 stack had twindled to around 4,650. We were late into the 3rd level at 50-100 blinds (rounds are 45 minutes, the first level had 25-25 blinds if you are confused about why it is 50-100 in the 3rd level). I had been card dead and there had been few opportunities to get involved in many pots (I am sure I had the image of a very tight player). I was in the SB this hand. John Gale, who has won a WPT event and a WSOP bracelet, is 2 seats to my left. John has been playing a lot of hands, raising quite frequently with a variety of hands (not total trash, but small pairs, suited aces, etc.) from about any position at the table. He has shown down several winners - only once I saw him with a premium hand, QQ, that he had played from middle position. Things have been going well for him, he appears to have 15,000+ in chips and is on a tear.

Part 1:

John raises it up to $300 (3 x BB) in first position. 3 players have called by the time the action gets to me in the SB (2 players were to John's immediate left, then a late position caller). I look at my hand, and have JJ. It is 200 to call, and there is 1,350 in the pot already. John has been raising a lot, but this in an UTG raise. What would you have done, raise or just call the 200?

Part 2:

I actually decided to just call the 200. The raise UTG concerned me, and I chose to see a flop by just calling (I am still unclear as to how I should have played it before the flop). And, honestly, I was concerned about putting my tourney on the line at this point with a pair of jacks. If my stack had been shorter I would have raised or moved in - or so I think.

The flop comes 2c, 6s, 7s. There is 1,550 in the pot and I have $4,350 in chips. What would you do?

Part 3:

I decided to make a nearly pot-sized bet of 1,500 (about 1/3 of my chips). I wanted to find out if my hand was any good. John Gale has to know that I am a tight player - actually my lack of cards should have made me appear ultra tight. John thought for about 2 minutes and just called. Everybody else folded. The turn came a Td. So there is 2c, 6s, 7s, Td on flop. John's call on the flop really concerned me. I actually put him on a very big pair. He had to be afraid of a big hand such as a set in that multiway pot, with 3 players to act behind him (or so I concluded). I guess he could have had a hand like AKs. Surely he would have raised if he had had a set himself. I checked the turn, John put in a huge bet, and I folded like a cheap lawn chair. What would you have done on the turn?

[jetra2]

I think I call here.

Jason

[dad604]

I might have cr but it seems I bust out more times with JJ than any other hand. So my advice might not be good.

[Clipper]

Jason, the problem I have with calling is that if I was willing to call, seems to me like I should have just bet out on the turn - actually just push. I don't think the man was calling on the flop with a draw, at least with a tight player leading into him for 1,500 and with 3 players to act behind him.

This type of hand can get you in a lot of trouble. In hindsight, I think I would have should have stuck in a big raise preflop. John had been so active, that he could have had a hand that could not stand a big raise (although at the time him raising UTG planted the notion of a big pair in my mind). I mean, if I was willing to bet out 1,500 on the flop (after flop came favorable - I guess anyway) the situation did not really change. Either John Gale had the big pair or he did not. I could have found out before the flop for a little less money (say if I raised it up to 1,300 or so from the SB). Clearly the limpers did not have the type of hands that I would have been scared of (QQ-AA).

I think if I could go back, I would should have either raised it up to $1,300 before the flop, or if I just called the bet (trying for the set) I should have checked the flop to see what developed. There were just too many players seeing a flop and I was completely out of position. It may look weak, but I could have gotten away from the JJ with basically the same stack I started with, instead of getting crippled.

[hachkc]

With JJ OOP against 4 players, I play it like a small/mid pair for set value and simply call pf. Against 2 other playes, I can see reraising preflop to like 1000 or so.

I'll check/call the flop depending on the number of callers though I can easily folding here to any serious action. To early to invest much in JJ OOP, so I wait for a better spot. I have trouble seeing many good reasons to lead the flop against 4 other players.

[hachkc]

I probably check/call the flop heads up or so and against a reasonable bet and check/fold the turn. If he checks the turn, I hope for a cheap showdown and maybe make a small blocking bet on the river. If he only has an overpair, he may simply call fearing a set or something.

Just an ugly hand to play OOP.

F'ing jacks.

[JoseRijo]

I can see just calling pre-flop and playing for set value. But I would've just checked the flop. One-third of your stack is way too much to pay to see where you're at.

If UTG bets 1500 after you've checked and the others fold, I think you can go all-in.

[Clipper]

The more I think about it, this would not be a bad spot to raise before the flop (don't let all of the limpers see a flop, and increase my stack by around 1/3 if I fold him). The UTG raiser has a big stack and he has been raising an awful lot. If he has the big pair it is just not my night. And if he has it, I will still make my set 20% of the time - this is important in swaying the decision I think; this tidbit combined with the fact that I likely have the best hand. I can't see the other players just calling him with anything but a speculative hand worse than JJ.

Note, I would prefer to bet 1,500 preflop, then maybe even push the rest on the flop (no matter what comes). In my mind, if more than 1/3 of my chips go in I am pot committed. If I moved in preflop it looks like I may have AK or medium pair - basically making a move or something.

If I just called before flop, I just about have to forfeit the hand if anyone makes a decent bet on flop after I check.

[Hopin2Steal]

4 players and bet is to you and you have a tight table image? Bet out 1500 and see who wants to mess with you. You would've been in much better position on the flop. Problem with the flop is two spades. You bet out and what if someone raises? Are you calling a set? A draw? What? All sorts of problems. Better to narrow the field beforehand imho.

[cdnmoose]

Originally Posted by Clipper

And if he has it, I will still make my set 20% of the time - this is important in swaying the decision I think; this tidbit combined with the fact that I likely have the best hand.

Huh? This is your plan for the hand? Raise preflop and when he pushes in, call off the rest of your stack because you are 20% to make a set by the river if you are behind?