[Wooderson]

So this is a live hand from last night at a game I play in. It's .5/1 NLHE, average stack is usually around $60 and most folks don't buy in for more than that. Average stack is very true for each of the three players in this hand. There are 7 players at the table. This game in general plays quite loose.

UTG limps and then it folds to the button. Button raises to $4. SB folds, BB calls and UTG calls.

So some facts: BB is a pretty solid TAG player. UTG is a bit of a maniac and has very high variance. Button is sometimes TAG, sometimes weak-tight. In this instance I'm most interested in the Button's play. He happened to look down to see pocket 4s.

(Pot $12.50) Flop comes Ts 2d 3s. BB checks, UTG bets $6 and it is called around.

(Pot $30.50) Turn comes 4d. BB checks, UTG again bets $6, Button raises to $25. BB calls as does UTG.

(Pot $105.50) River comes Js. BB bets $50. UTG folds. Button sits for a moment and folds.

Questions:
Should the button have folded?
Should the button have raised more or less at the turn?
Should the button have raised the flop?
Should the BB have bet more or less at the river?
Should the BB have raised the turn?
What did everyone have?


*edited for bad math*

[jmc]

60 - (4+6+25) = $25 in your stack left on the river?
I think you miscounted the pot.
$4 preflop, 3 to the flop, no SB = $12.5
3 players call $6 = 12.5 + 18 = 30.5
Turn: 3 players call $25 = 75+30.5 = 105.5
River: you're getting 5:1 to call.

Questions:
Should the button have folded?
Hard to say -- BB could have 22/33, but more likely a flush. He was getting 2.4:1 on the turn to draw, but I'm not sure why he called -- it's possible that he somehow has some kind of straight draw to go along with his flush draw (A ). OR, he was counting on UTG coming along for the ride as well (3.2:1 + implied). Button put himself in a bad spot by not getting another $25 into the pot on the turn (unless i misunderstand what the stacks are).

Should the button have raised more or less at the turn?
I would probably raise a little more on the turn so that your river decision is easier. The pot is already $36 and your call will make it $42 -- you only have $44 left in your stack. Moving all-in for a raise of +44 isn't unreasonable if you suspect someone is on a draw. Raising to $25 puts you in a tough spot on the river -- you're getting 5:1 but you're not sure if it's a value bet (JJ/TT/flush/straight) or a bluff (or a weird slowplayed hand you beat like 22/33).

Should the button have raised the flop?
Not sure what this would have accomplished, unless you were planning on making a big bluff on the turn if you missed your 2-outs. If you raise to $18, you'll bloat the pot to like 48~66 (depending on # of callers) and only have $32 left in your stack -- if 2 people call, i'm not sure you can force out a flush draw on the turn (this is bad, cuz he'll probably have 2 overcards to your 44 as well).

Should the BB have bet more or less at the river?
If stacks are $60, then 60-(4+6+25) = 25, so he should bet that. If he has a flush, that's a perfectly good bet :P

Should the BB have raised the turn?
With a straight? Probably not (i.e. nobody else is probably on a flush draw cuz they are betting!). With a straight+flush draw? Probably not. With top set TT/32/33/22 -- moving all in is probably best.

What did everyone have?
UTG: Maniac? 2 cards -- anything from medium pocket pair to AK.
Button: 444 (obviously) -- but it's very well disguised.
BB: flush/22/33/JJ/TT/straight/crazy bluff/AA/KK/QQ

[Wooderson]

FYI, I'm not the button with pocket 44.

The reason I asked whether or not the button should have raised the UTG bet on the flop is just from the C-bet aspect. In otherwords, if representing strength pre-flop, why not at the flop. I was somewhat surprised he didn't raise the flop bet to him.

I'm curious as to whether or not a smaller bet by the BB on the river would have been a better idea since the button can sometimes play weak tight. It's such an amazingly draw-heavy board that weak-tight has to really consider the fold, so it's the question of if the bet was less than 1/2 the pot, might the BB have gotten the Button's stack.

Any other thoughts/ideas on this hand? The draw heavy nature of the board and the three personalities at the table just make it very interesting to me.

[Poboy]

Button should have folded the flop. Since he didn't, he should shove the turn. Since he didn't, he should fold the river. The BB, if a TAG, shouldn't be calling the turn with a naked FD. The straight draw is much scarier. A TAG river bluff after a check raised turn is highly unlikely. I suspect some nice play by the BB in this hand.

The button pretty much did everything wrong on this hand. I don't mind the preflop raise, but even there he's better off limping.

[jmc]

For the record: what were effective stacks on the river? Did button only have $25 left or so?

[Wooderson]

Re: stacks - In rethinking this, the stacks were probably more like BB ~$80, UTG ~$140, BB ~$80. I forgot that the UTG had won a huge pot just before this hand and the BB and Button had both been adding to thier stack.

Re: PoBoy's post - As I said, this is a VERY loose game. It is quite common that a pre-flop bet of $4 is made and everyone calls it. It can also be a very maniacal game with people bluffing huge with nothing.

The BB had A5 and hit the gutshot on the turn.

[dad604]

I would hve folded the flop but with the set on turn, I think his betting is sound. I would have called the river against the maniac. Those are the kind of hands that you get stacked. Think BB is a poor player, calling flop with gutshot and not reraising the turn to to make sets and flush draws pay. As it turn out possible flush on the river could have screwed him up.

[jmc]

Ok, so:
80 - (4 + 6) = 70 at the start of the turn
80 - (4 + 6 + 25) = 45 left in stacks after the turn.
3:1 for button to call the river.

I suppose the BB could have check-re-reraised all in on the turn to gain the maximum for his hand. We see in this example that his opponents were afraid of the flush card on the river and didn't pay him.

I'd say calling the flop wasn't horrible -- apparently in this case he was getting a lot in terms of implied odds, but was drawing a lot thinner than he could have imagined (it's a 2 outer!).

Side note:
How many of you TAGs like to play A5 from the BB against a loose-aggressive table? I know i would much prefer to play in position, OR defend with a much stronger hand.

[dad604]

I am with you. I definite would not like to play A5 OOP. I was a TAG but PT just lower me to SLAA.

[Wooderson]

Originally Posted by jmc

Side note:
How many of you TAGs like to play A5 from the BB against a loose-aggressive table? I know i would much prefer to play in position, OR defend with a much stronger hand.

In general I would whole-heartedly agree. The caveat is that this game is very, and I mean VERY loose. Playing typical tight poker would result in a meaningless experience in the main and a huge pot taken home as a very rare reward. That's a secondary reason I posted this hand. In the main it's all very bad poker. At this table there may or may not be some compelling ideas for such loose stakes. I wasn't in the hand, but I am wondering what I can learn to help adapt to this ultra-nuts table environment.