[jdunford]

*EDIT* Poll question should read: "post-turn" (typo).

After the usual tournament, 4 regular players (including me) start playing a 25¢/50¢ NLHE cash game. I set the table max at $40 (80xBB), but the others convinced me we'd all buy-in for $20 to start and see how it goes (short-stacked imo, but whatever).

To my left is a very loose, mildly aggressive player (S). Across from me is a very tight, moderately aggressive player (M). To my right is a tricky, very loose, very aggressive player (C), who'll bluff with any two cards, but will play AKs the same way as 69o. I've re-loaded once for $30 after losing my first $20. C has about half the chips on the table. C has been raising pre-flop to $2 or $3 regularly.

My image is usually moderately tight, moderately aggressive. At full tables, I'm known to usually continuation bet, rarely showdown worse starting hands than ATo, KQo, etc., don't usually play suited connectors below T9s, usually raise pre-flop 3-5X BB... try to play textbook cash-game poker... but because I'm known to play like this, every now-and-then I'll raise with nothing (J9s or 65s) just to change it up, and will represent whatever's on the board that I'd normally play, ignoring what's in my hand. I don't like to play 6-max, so 4-player cash game is way looser than I like... I'm a little out of my comfort zone and have trouble adjusting to these kinds of hand values.

C posts SB.
I post BB.
S folds.
M folds.
C raises to $1.

I have .

This raise from C is disturbingly small, after several consecutive hands of $2-$3 raises. I think (a) his small raise looks weak, like an attempt to steal my blind cheaply- although this could very well be a trap, and (b) I'm probably playing too tight in general (definitely not involved in anywhere close to 1/4 of the hands; another reason this small bet might be an attempt to steal cheaply). I decide to raise, pretty much ignoring the cards in my hand for the moment, hoping to steal (need to win back some blinds that I've folded away on the last few orbits), but with decent implied odds if I happen to hit a flush. If he calls and the flop misses me, or if he re-raises pre-flop, I'll be happy to throw this crap-hand away.

I raise to $4. (mistake # 1?)
C calls.
Pot = $8.

I decide C must have something. He's loose, but not suicidal. Again, looking forward to dumping this hand unless the flop has lots of s on it.

Flop is .

C bets $5.

Looks like a standard continuation-sized bet... but I re-raised him pre-flop! However, he's known to vary his play so much that a ~ 1/2-pot bet almost looks unusual. His bet could genuinely represent the A or perhaps a flopped set (value bet), or he may just have a straight draw. It's unlikely he'd bluff with nothing at all... but not completely out of his range. I'm a little uneasy, but decide not to fold, since, if he does have something - open-ended straight draw that hits, or a flopped set (if the board doesn't pair), or a good A - then I'm likely to double-up if I hit the flush. Besides, his betting is consistent with having a medium/small pair (either wired or middle/bottom pair on the board), and he his 1/2-pot bet is due to his fear of that A. If that's the case, a raise here might take down the pot right now... and I still have outs for my flush. Looks like a good time for a semi-bluff raise. That way I should get a good idea of where I stand. The only scenario I really fear at this point is if he is also chasing the flush and holds the K. Then I only have 3 outs (the remaining Qs).

I raise to $15. (mistake #2?)
C calls.
Pot = $38.

Turn is .

C pushes all-in.

C easily has me covered. I count my chips: just over $15 remaining, which means the pot (including his post-turn bet) is about $53. A tournament player would say "I'm pot-committed", but this is a cash game. Bets I save are money in my pocket. I can always re-load after the hand, but don't want to throw it away on a bad call... but don't want to make a mistake by folding, either.

The question is, do I have odds to call. He didn't ask how many chips I had; he just stated "all in" knowing he had me covered. I quickly counted my chips and double-checked the size of the pot in order to calculate the odds I was getting, and went over the betting in my head.

Based on this info (about playing styles, hands he could be on, the way the hand was bet, the odds I'm getting), what do you do? Easy call? Crying call? Crying fold? Easy fold?

[dad604]

I'll say that he has the best hand at the moment. You have the flush draw but pot is offering you less than 4 - 1 so I would fold. Mostly likely he has an A, if he has 1/2 the chips on the table, also looks like he is pretty good player.

[Poboy]

Stack sizes?

I fold preflop. If you are going to re-steal a LAG, you need to put more in. Raise it to $6.50. I also call flop, check/fold the turn.

The last thing you want to do is stack off with Q6. Did you plan to check raise or raise a FD on the flop back when you were thinking about stealing preflop? Preflop is when you have to think about what's going to happen on the flop and what you'll do about it.
When you raise to $15, you have ~half a pot behind. If you are going to raise, just shove.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by dad604

I'll say that he has the best hand at the moment. You have the flush draw but pot is offering you less than 4 - 1 so I would fold. Mostly likely he has an A, if he has 1/2 the chips on the table, also looks like he is pretty good player.

He has 1/2 the chips because my first $20 ended up in a hand where I was dealt AK, flopped an A, bet it all along, and he called me down and caught runner-runner 2-pair. He claimed he thought I was bluffing (re: the A on the board).

What if he has a pair < QQ? Maybe K9 or K7? That would give me 3 more outs. Maybe I can count 1 of them... Is it unreasonable to think that 33% of the time he could be bluffing with nothing or playing one of those hands?

Some more info about C:

He's very loose, very aggressive; pushed all-in a few orbits earlier causing me to fold TPTK (gave < 2:1 pot-odds and there were straight and flush possibilities), and he showed down 52o (was playing the board). He's good because he's unpredictable - which pays off for him in tournaments (often finishes 1st or 1st to bust; he's the reason we changed our tourneys from unlimited re-buys before the break to 1 re-buy per person, 'cause no one else could keep up), but he has a losing record in cash games. I've taken > $100 off him at these stakes before.

... which is actually a reason to respect him in this hand. It looks "trappy" compared to his usual run-and-gun style. But he knows that I know that it looks odd.

What bothers me the most about his play in this hand is that he bet-calls on each street. His usual style is to never call... (re)raise or fold, but he let's his opponent do the calling. He's definitely not afraid to have the pot spiral out of control and end up huge with a scary board and mediocre cards.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by Poboy

Stack sizes?

I fold preflop. If you are going to re-steal a LAG, you need to put more in. Raise it to $6.50. I also call flop, check/fold the turn.

The last thing you want to do is stack off with Q6. Did you plan to check raise or raise a FD on the flop back when you were thinking about stealing preflop? Preflop is when you have to think about what's going to happen on the flop and what you'll do about it.
When you raise to $15, you have ~half a pot behind. If you are going to raise, just shove.

Agreed and agreed.

As in the OP, we'd originally bought in for $20 each, so there's only $110 on the table (including my $30 re-load); he has about $50 of it, and I was around $30 (apparently closer to $34, as it plays out).

Pre-flop, I decided he looked weak and I might be able to steal cheaply (it's extremely rare for me to raise to $6.50 from the BB (20% of my stack); he definitely would've re-raised all-in, seeing it as an obvious attempt to steal, regardless of what he held). The reason I was cautious was because his raise pre-flop was so small. He knows I would've made that same raise (to $4) with a high pair or AKs, so I didn't need to waste more chips. But perhaps simply calling would've been better (getting 3:1).

I had decided pre-flop to fold to a re-raise, and to bet or raise any 4-flush on the flop. I couldn't check-raise because I had position on him (he's the SB; I'm the BB). I was going to fold to any bet on any other flop (unless I hit trips or 2-pair; relatively rare instances).

When I raised to $15 (a) I hadn't counted my chips (there was too much testosterone for counting), and (b) I didn't expect him to call. I figured he'd realize I was serious, and he'd either fold or re-raise all-in. I may have had more fold equity by pushing, but wanted to make him think I wanted him to call/raise. Basically, I needed it to look enough like a value bet to make him suspicious of what I had.

Keep in mind this is a 4-handed cash game between players who play together regularly. There's a lot of psychology involved. It takes completely different strategy than, say, a big MTT online where you don't know the other players, might only play at a table for a few hands before being re-seated, and can do well by playing textbook tourney poker.

[Quads]

I don't see the flop with Q/6, let alone call a raise with it.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by Quads

I don't see the flop with Q/6, let alone call a raise with it.

Neither do I. And this is a good example of why I don't. But it's essentially heads-up here. He min-raises from SB (I was basically thinking like he was the button in a heads-up match , but without the positional advantage after the flop). I was hoping to win back some of my lost blinds from the previous several orbits of folding. Even the (usually) very tight player across from me was playing more hands than me (maybe 1/6 to 1/8 ), and the other players were folding to my $2-$4 pre-flop raises whenever I had cards... or felt like it was time I should act like it.

[jojobinks]

your partial queen outs should be offset by the chances that your flush draws are no good.

i see how badly you want to call, but it's not good. you know it. if you do call, you just played 3 horrible streets in a row. let 'er go.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by jdunford

Pre-flop, I decided he looked weak and I might be able to steal cheaply (it's extremely rare for me to raise to $6.50 from the BB (20% of my stack); he definitely would've re-raised all-in, seeing it as an obvious attempt to steal, regardless of what he held). The reason I was cautious was because his raise pre-flop was so small. He knows I would've made that same raise (to $4) with a high pair or AKs, so I didn't need to waste more chips. But perhaps simply calling would've been better (getting 3:1).

If he's a LAG, then all of your bets/raises should be bigger, not just the steal ones.
Calling sucks. Folding is best.

I had decided pre-flop to fold to a re-raise, and to bet or raise any 4-flush on the flop. I couldn't check-raise because I had position on him (he's the SB; I'm the BB). I was going to fold to any bet on any other flop (unless I hit trips or 2-pair; relatively rare instances).

If you decided to raise a FD if he led, you should be aware that it would have to be a shove.

When I raised to $15 (a) I hadn't counted my chips (there was too much testosterone for counting), and (b) I didn't expect him to call. I figured he'd realize I was serious, and he'd either fold or re-raise all-in. I may have had more fold equity by pushing, but wanted to make him think I wanted him to call/raise. Basically, I needed it to look enough like a value bet to make him suspicious of what I had.

Fold equity is only part of it. Honestly, I doubt the guy folds if he has an A, or even KK/QQ. You want to get your money in here because it gives you 2 cards for the bet, and having so little behind makes the turn suck unless it's your flush. As is, more than half your stack is gone on Q high and now you have to fold the turn.

[luckychick]

I haven't played a lot of cash NL, but here are my thoughts....

Originally Posted by jdunford

This raise from C is disturbingly small, after several consecutive hands of $2-$3 raises. I think (a) his small raise looks weak, like an attempt to steal my blind cheaply- although this could very well be a trap, and (b) I'm probably playing too tight in general (definitely not involved in anywhere close to 1/4 of the hands;

I have found against many LAG players a small raise means a big hand, not a cheap steal. Doesn't sound like the type of player who tries to steal cheaply from your description. What size of steal raise would he make with a poo/marginal hand? A big or small one? Alarm bells are ringing.

Originally Posted by jdunford

another reason this small bet might be an attempt to steal cheaply). I decide to raise, pretty much ignoring the cards in my hand for the moment, hoping to steal (need to win back some blinds that I've folded away on the last few orbits), but with decent implied odds if I happen to hit a flush. If he calls and the flop misses me, or if he re-raises pre-flop, I'll be happy to throw this crap-hand away.

Don't thing you're deep enough with $30 for implied odds of a flush. Plus, what are you going to do if you have a flush draw instead of a made flush on the flop? I have no problem with you playing back at him here, but "implied odds for a flush" is a terrible argument here, IMO. Hitting your Q with a 6 kicker seems worrisome... I'd almost rather hit a 6. You need to feel confident in your ability to outplay him post flop. You have position, which is maybe a good thing, but sometimes against a LAG player HU that's almost worse because he takes away all your options by showing aggression intially.

Originally Posted by jdunford

I raise to $4. (mistake # 1?)
C calls.
Pot = $8.
I decide C must have something. He's loose, but not suicidal. Again, looking forward to dumping this hand unless the flop has lots of s on it.

Q6 isn't that great of a hand, but I don't mind the raise so much. You are only four handed, and if C is really that laggy, then you have to play some of these sometimes. How often do you think you win here against this player with this bet? Plus, you're representing something. Moreover, if you trust your read, you have some good info. I'm not doing this often, but I think it's okay. I don't think raising more than this really gets you anywhere, as he is going to probably give up for $4 if he is FOS, but call $5 or $6 if he has something.

Originally Posted by jdunford

Flop is .

C bets $5.

If you trust yourself and your read that "he has something", then this seems pretty easy to me. You have neither the odds nor the implied odds to call here, so fold. If you think that he is merely floating and has very little or you are ahead, push, but I don't know why you'd change your mind now. Fold. (There's an outside chance he has a mid pp here and will fold to a push if you represent an A here, but I still think this is a fold.)

Originally Posted by jdunford

I raise to $15. (mistake #2?)
C calls.
Pot = $38.

Turn is .

C pushes all-in.

I don't like this sized raise at all. I think he is representing a hand, and it's not big enough for him to lay anything down. I think you're just throwing money in. After the turn push, I think it's a pretty easy fold. If you have 12 outs (Q as well as flush) instead of 9 it's actually more-or-less even money, but with 9 outs you have to fold. Doubtful the Q is good.