[jldecarlo]

I want to try Omaha. Not that I've perfected my Hold'em game or anything.

Looking for advice, recommended reading,etc.

L

[ACE'S FULL]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

I want to try Omaha. Not that I've perfected my Hold'em game or anything.

Looking for advice, recommended reading,etc.

L

I would love to hear some ideas on this as well... I have just started playing and have had very mixed results...

[Dazzler]

Super System 2 got me off to a decent start - as well as introducing many other types of poker.

[Poboy]

If you're looking to buy a book, buy Rolf Slotboom's Secrets of Professional Pot-Limit Omaha.

Start off by reading some of his articles on CP.

SS2 if you have it is a decent start.

[hachkc]

Hi, Hi/Lo or both?

The best advice for both is play to the nuts or near nuts. Don't chase str8s on flush draw or paired boards. Learn to hate 3pr flops

For hi/lo, play for a scoop so you need a good 2 way hand. High only hands are playable in multiway pots (lots of players usually means lots of low cards out).

[DoubleDeuce]

I just got back from the bookstore looking for something good on Omaha. I know several 2+2ers recommend Ciaffone. I couldn't find a copy though.

Ray Zee has a good split pot book. I have that one and it is excellent.

Really I'm looking for something with good hand rankings and/or information about tournament play. I've been trying my hand at $1 MTT in HORSE and LO8 and need help with playing hands once the blinds get big.

I just know overall that LO8 is more of a postflop game than LHE. Hand ranges run so close together that preflop hand selection is nice but not critical. Position, hand reading, and understanding draws and redraws are the important criteria for making a good Omaha player, IMO.

[_GUN_]

here's my Omaha feelings....

play combo hands

A)a hand with straight and flush possibilities
B)big pairs with a suited ace

hands like AQ-JT double-suited, AK-Q-J, AT-98, A9-JJ are good hands to see flops with. semi-bluff whenever possible, it's generally incorrect to check-call with a huge draw.

say you have Ah8h-Jc9c, you've limped in seat 6 in 9-handed play, the table is fairly weak and loose.

flop comes J-4-7 with two hearts, you have a gutshot draw, top pair and a draw to the nuts. if you check-call, you will often end up missing your draw and folding to a big turn bet vs a weak player who is semi-bluffing with Qh-Xh FD.

if you lead and take command of the hand, you may drive out a bad two pair, or a better straight draw---like 58-9-A with no flush draw

don't raise pre-flop, unless you're going to fight to see a flop.

example, don't come in raising with AK-Q-5 and then get repopped by a weak maniac holding AT8-8.

you will often be better limping and then calling a raise to see if you can flop a big draw. the more you raise pre-flop, in a loose game filled with bad players, the bigger the pot is pre-flop. which means you'll have to get luckier on the flop than everyone else and with a big pot built, you create incentive for over-aggressive players to steal.

example, you raise with AA-3-K because you got excited to see two aces.

the flop comes J68 rainbow, it's .10/.25 PL, you raised to .75 and got four callers.

that ugly flop comes down and now SB (who has shown absolutely no skill to this point whatsoever) leads out for a pot-sized bet of $4.25, what on earth do you do now?

you fold 100% of the time, you can't beat J6, J8, 66, 88, JJ...a hand like Q7-9-T now has 16 outs....3 queens, 4 fives, 3 tens, 3 nines, 3 sevens

for all you know, he could have KK and is too stupid to realize you came in raising with AA or possibly AJ-K-J

when you miss the flop in Omaha, be prepared to fold to suicide lead-outs all day long.

especially if you raised in middle position...you can't flat-call with four people left to act behind you, even if you know you still have the lead-out player beaten, because you have no idea what will happen behind you.

if I was going to give someone basic notes for pot-limit and fixed-limit Omaha-high, I'd give them some of these keys:

1) see flops cheaply and hope to flop big draws, suited aces with straight connectors, high pairs with suited connects---QQ-KJ, KK-AJ, JJ-AQ

2)if you don't spike a set with an overpair to the board and a fairly competent player makes a bet, assume it's a set or top two, or pairs with a draw...then fold your hand with no remorse

2) don't be over-calling as a third wheel with a garbage flush after the river.

board is 2c 9s 3h 4c 6c, if player 1 leads and player 2 calls, don't call with Jc-Tc, you're third wheel, you can't 5c-7c, you can't beat Ac, Qc, Kc, you have the 5th best hand for the board, dump it without hesitation 90% of the time

3) don't make "keepin them honest calls"

don't call on a flush/straight board with multiple opponents left to act unless you have the near nuts.

the board is 4K358, SB leads out and you're BB with K8-xx and there are two players left to act behind you. if someone leads into three players on the river, give them credit for the 6-7 and nut straight. if no one has shown any interest in a pot the whole way and it's checked to the river, then they make a pot-sized lead out, don't over-call with top two pair, dump your hand.

4) don't reraise late in the action with 3rd or 4th best full house, unless you have a great read on an opponent.

66TK4 board (example)

someone bet out on the flop, you have AJ-64 and decide to smooth-call, they bet on the turn again, you call again.

on the river, you fill up, you do not reraise here, even if your opponent is a maniac. you can't beat 6T, 6K, TT, KK

if you reraise the river with sixes over fours, then you're a complete fish.

5) everyone's going to tell you not to overplay K-high flush draws, but in my 200,000 to 300,000 hands of PLO, I've paid off an A-high flush with a K-high flush less than ten times

you shouldn't be playing a one-way draw in the first place. if you have a set or straight draw to go along with a K-high flush, then it's fine to be building a pot on the flop and turn, but if you get a big reraise on the end, you can lay it down when someone telegraphs they have the A with a big reraise

it doesn't take a genius to realize the guy flat-calling as the 3rd wheel, who brings in a big raise on the end, only when the flush card comesl, is holding the ace.

the key to Omaha is being aware of the current nuts, being aware of how you're perceived and playing a huge draw just like a made hand to throw your opponents off. if they can't read where you're at; when you hit, you're going to get huge pots.

just because everyone got four cards, doesn't mean the player holding the ace has a suited card to make a flush possible. it doesn't mean the A isn't in the burns or the deck. if you flop a SD/FD combo hand, I advise you to bet on the come.

if your flush card comes on the turn and there's a bet and a reraise behind you, then you can dump your K. the person with the ace will reveal they have the ace.

here's my summary on the K-high flush

*playing a K-high flush draw OOP in multi-way action with no back-up is suicide.
*dumping a K-high flush draw with two pair or a straight draw is idiotic.
*betting out with a rivered K-high flush draw vs two or more opponets is often incorrect, but if you never play a K-high flush, you're going to lose out on a lot of opportunities to bleed dollars out of weaker flushes, straights, and sets.
*the smaller the field, the less likely someone holds the A-high flush, you just need to be cautious, play smart positional poker, and trust your reads.

******************************

if you can read situations, you have a firm respect for position, have a solid general poker IQ, then Omaha's going to be a fun and profitable game for you. with four down cards, you're going to see more flops and you're going to see more action.

beats in Omaha will be much more brutal than beats in hold'em

example:

you hold KsQs-Kh2h, it's 5-handed play and you call an utg raise pre-flop from the SB...flop comes Kc 4c 7s, you lead out and get reraised, you surmise you're up against the AcXc and you call the reraise, instead of over-committing, the turn is a 3h. you refuse to believe that some idiot has a 56 based on his pre-flop raise and his reraise on the flop, you put him on AcXc-A-X, you check and he bets. you call thinking you're committed to try and fill up and the river is 9c, you check, there's $2.75 in the pot (.10/.25), your opponent sheepishly bets .20, you call to see what on earth he's playing against you and he shows Q5-6-Q

or better yet, get used to this play....you check your monster set which has been ruined by this same board. your opponent bets .20 at 2.75 like a fool, you realize the flush has scared him and you reraise to 1.50 (you feel proud of your read and your boldness), he makes an insta-call and turns over the 5-6 with absolutely no regard for the flush he doesn't have. or he whips out a J-10 of clubs for 3rd best flush and you're shocked he called with such trash.

Play simulations by yourself, get a deck and some chips and deal out 9-handed play, 6-handed play. Examine the cards, determine what is playable and from what position, deal out some flops and start theorizing yourself. If you don't know what the proper play is when you're dealing out simulation hands, then you're never going to beat human opponents.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce

I just got back from the bookstore looking for something good on Omaha. I know several 2+2ers recommend Ciaffone. I couldn't find a copy though.

Ray Zee has a good split pot book. I have that one and it is excellent.

Really I'm looking for something with good hand rankings and/or information about tournament play. I've been trying my hand at $1 MTT in HORSE and LO8 and need help with playing hands once the blinds get big.

I just know overall that LO8 is more of a postflop game than LHE. Hand ranges run so close together that preflop hand selection is nice but not critical. Position, hand reading, and understanding draws and redraws are the important criteria for making a good Omaha player, IMO.

Try Cappeletti's CP articles, good H/L stuff.

[the3rd]

Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce

I just know overall that LO8 is more of a postflop game than LHE. Hand ranges run so close together that preflop hand selection is nice but not critical. Position, hand reading, and understanding draws and redraws are the important criteria for making a good Omaha player, IMO.

I disagree somewhat. Hand selection is still critical. Playing marginal hands in O8B will likely cost you more than in HE. You may hit the flop, but generally it is tougher to tell where you are at in Omaha. If you do not have a redraw to the nuts, it is likely someone else does since more players usually see the flop.

beats in Omaha will be much more brutal than beats in hold'em

It may feel that way, but really it is not. At least the way I define bad beat. 1,2,3,4 outers are rare in Omaha. Will you start with the best hand or flop the best hand and loose more often in Omaha? Absolutely! Most likely you were not that much of a favorite.

[_GUN_]

Originally Posted by the3rd

It may feel that way, but really it is not. At least the way I define bad beat. 1,2,3,4 outers are rare in Omaha. Will you start with the best hand or flop the best hand and loose more often in Omaha? Absolutely! Most likely you were not that much of a favorite.

I'm going to disagree with all of that.

A bad beat in Omaha is when you bet every street with a set, straight draw and a back-up flush draw and someone with no pair, no straight draw, and Q-high/ J-high flush draw cold-calls you on every street and then hits one of four remaining spades in the deck to best you on the river.

A bad beat in hold'em is generally characterized by someone making an idiotic push with second pair or a gutshot straight draw and rivering two pair to beat a pair of aces or something.

In Omaha, where it takes a much better hand to defeat the field, a bad beat is generally characterized by a much worse poker play.

When I bet the flop with As 6s-Jc-Td on 9s-Ad-8s and a guy calls me with with Qs-Ts and rivers a gutshot (thanks to Jd) with one of three remaining jacks, that's a lot more frustrating to me than most of my hold'em beats. I understand a hand where a guy thinks his pair of aces is good, doesn't care about the kicker, because he's overvaluing top pair and then rivers a 3 to improve his A3 offsuit and crush my AJ

but a bad beat in Omaha is this hand--

Example, I have AcJc-7-7 and limp hoping to flop a club FD with a set or GS as secondary draw, the flop is 557 with two diamonds, SB checks and all the other limpers check. I bet pot with sevens full and get check-raised by a guy with J rag - J rag, idiot has a trash flush draw and a garbage overpair, he hits case jack on the river to take 3/4th my stack

Four outers are rare? Maybe at the $25/50 tables, but not in my world of $20 PLO tourneys and low-stakes cash tables.

I could go through my hand history in an 80-hand session and probably count a half-dozen pots I lost on the river to a guy drawing at a Q-high flush and then rivers a set or sucker straight and won't give it up to someone repping the nut straight or better set.

I mean for you to say that 1/2/3/4 outers are rare is like you're playing on Mars to me. I mean maybe in some country club $25/50 game where everyone's a world beater, you don't lose to gutshots and guys who chase OE SD's on paired, flush boards, but not in the $20 and $30 buy-in tourneys on P*. I made three final PLO tables in Nov. 2006 and that's all I ever saw from people. ($20-30 buy-ins, 180-player fields) That's the reality of it, guys chasing with Q-high flush draw vs a guy with a set and flush combo hand and then felting him with a runner-runner backdoor gutshot.

Originally Posted by the3rd

1,2,3,4 outers are rare in Omaha.

I seriously want to know where this magical game is, that you don't see 1/2/3/4 outers happen all day long. I would love to railbird you at this poker utopia.