[jldecarlo]

I got killed tonight in a cash game, both hands when I flopped trips. In both cases I raised, and was re-raised, called and lost. Here are both hands as well as I remember. What I'm looking for is mostly the thought process I needed to go through when deciding on whether or not to call.

1/2 NL Hold'em.

Hand 1: I'm in the BB with Q4o, several limpers to me. I check and the flop comes QQT rainbow. I bet $10 and get called by one player, typical loose aggressive. Turn is a 9, and the board now has two hearts. I bet $30, and get re-raised to $80. At this point, I have about $90 left with $50 to call. I am well covered by the other player. I figure that I'm behind, probably to a straight. The pot is laying about 2.5:1. What do I need to be thinking?


Hand 2: I have worked my stack up to about $225. I am UTG with K7o. I have been pretty tight most of the night, especially the last hour, so I make it $7 to go to do something different. I get 4 callers. Flop comes KKJ without a flush draw. I bet $50. A guy in late position thinks for a very long time and folds. I am nearly certain he has AJ (in fact he did have AJ). The button who is very loose and aggresive and way up for the night bumps it to $200. If I call, I will have about $15 left, so it's fold or all-in. I feel pretty sure he didn't have Jacks or he would have re-raised PF, so it looks like he has a King too. Pot odds are not quite 2:1. Thoughts here?

Laying down either hand would have been very difficult for me.

Any thoughts are aprreciated.

L

[xtwalker]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

Hand 1: I'm in the BB with Q4o, several limpers to me. I check and the flop comes QQT rainbow. I bet $10 and get called by one player, typical loose aggressive. Turn is a 9, and the board now has two hearts. I bet $30, and get re-raised to $80. At this point, I have about $90 left with $50 to call. I am well covered by the other player. I figure that I'm behind, probably to a straight. The pot is laying about 2.5:1. What do I need to be thinking?

If you think you are behind fold. You are likely behind a better Q or a straight... Goes back to your read on him through the night though.

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

Hand 2: I have worked my stack up to about $225. I am UTG with K7o. I have been pretty tight most of the night, especially the last hour, so I make it $7 to go to do something different. I get 4 callers. Flop comes KKJ without a flush draw. I bet $50. A guy in late position thinks for a very long time and folds. I am nearly certain he has AJ (in fact he did have AJ). The button who is very loose and aggresive and way up for the night bumps it to $200. If I call, I will have about $15 left, so it's fold or all-in. I feel pretty sure he didn't have Jacks or he would have re-raised PF, so it looks like he has a King too. Pot odds are not quite 2:1. Thoughts here?

Against a good LAG I have to assume that he doesn't have a good King... raise and a couple callers in front, a LAG would re-raise with KQ or AK. He wouldn't push that hard with a KJ (full house) Depending on my read for the rest of the night, I figure him for a weak K (like yours) or a QT, or mid pocket pair 8's to 10's. You need to push against any of those hands, so I push most of the time there.

[tator2k]

1) I agree with XT, if you think you're behind get out of the hand. I've been this exact type of hand and even if you're not behind yet, you pretty sure they're on a draw possibly multiple ways. In a similar cash game I was in a couple months ago, I raised with AJo UTG got 3 callers I flop top two pair but with 2 diamonds. I bet the pot and get one caller. The turn was a blank, and I know this guy will chase a flush draw to the end. So I flat ask him, 'How much is it going to cost me to get you off that flush draw?' His answer, 'You don't have enough...in your on the table or in your pocket.'

The dumb question is what do you do? I know I have the made hand but have REALLY bad luck against this guy in the past. I push, he calls (Which is the right thing to do) If I check, he pushes...

In the end, I push, he calls and the River is a diamond.

[yeltzen]

1) When I'm actually playing, my thought process is "WHERE IS THE ALL-IN BUTTON!?!?!?!?!!" When I'm not actually playing, my thought process is, "how often would they do this with a hand I beat?" The answer is probably something like less than 1% of the time. They likely have either a straight, or a better Q that they were slow-playing but can't any more since the board is becoming scary. I hate folding this, and I very rarely would when I was really playing, but it's almost impossible for your to have the best hand here. He knows you're close to being committed, so it's unlikely he'd bluff at this.

2) This one is tougher. It's a pretty bizarre play for someone that has you beat here. First, they didn't reraise preflop, so we can rule out JJ and probably AK. It's possible they just called with KQ, KJ, KT, K9, etc. However, in that case, wouldn't it be your job to get the other player's money in the pot, and not blow them out of it? I mean, if you have AJ or something, it's going to be tough for you to call that raise. If you have him crushed, though, you'll obviously call it. So, it's not a very +EV play unless you have a weak K... and putting you on that hand is a leap of faith considering you'd need the case K. There aren't any flush draws, so there's no reason to blow you out of the pot.

Since this is happening on the flop, I'd have a lot of trouble giving him credit for a better K. Then again, it's not my $200. The read you have on this guy and the way the hand has been played points to a call, so I'd make it.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by tator2k

The dumb question is what do you do? I know I have the made hand but have REALLY bad luck against this guy in the past. I push, he calls (Which is the right thing to do) If I check, he pushes...

In the end, I push, he calls and the River is a diamond.

The REALLY dumb question is: why didn't you plant a tracking device on this guy so you could play with him all the time?

[JoseRijo]

I think hand #1 is one of those folds good players make. If he was on a draw (or bluffing), he would've pushed. The (relatively) smallish raise is begging for a call.

I'm um, fairly certain the button in hand #2 does not put you on K7o. You raised UTG, and does AK or JJ overbet the pot in this situation? You might as well lose the rest of your money on this hand.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

Hand 1: I'm in the BB with Q4o, several limpers to me. I check and the flop comes QQT rainbow. I bet $10 and get called by one player, typical loose aggressive. Turn is a 9, and the board now has two hearts. I bet $30, and get re-raised to $80. At this point, I have about $90 left with $50 to call. I am well covered by the other player. I figure that I'm behind, probably to a straight. The pot is laying about 2.5:1. What do I need to be thinking?

I'm not quite following the math.
preflop $10
flop $20
turn = 30 + 80
= $140, 50 to call, 90 in your stack. You're gettting roughly 3:1 immediate odds, with 3.6:1 "implied odds".

My thought process:
1. What do i think my opponent has?
2. What does my opponent think I have?
3. If I'm behind, what are my outs?

From the flop and turn action, our opponent must think we have a queen. He's representing a hand that beats trip queens -- probably a straight. You're getting about the right price (barely) if your opponent has a straight and not a Q/TT/99. (roughly 3.5:1 to make a house).

Hand 2: I have worked my stack up to about $225. I am UTG with K7o. I have been pretty tight most of the night, especially the last hour, so I make it $7 to go to do something different. I get 4 callers. Flop comes KKJ without a flush draw. I bet $50. A guy in late position thinks for a very long time and folds. I am nearly certain he has AJ (in fact he did have AJ). The button who is very loose and aggresive and way up for the night bumps it to $200. If I call, I will have about $15 left, so it's fold or all-in. I feel pretty sure he didn't have Jacks or he would have re-raised PF, so it looks like he has a King too. Pot odds are not quite 2:1. Thoughts here?

Why did you bet so much on the flop? $35 would have been a pot sized bet. You want a hand like AJ to call. If someone else has a king, it's certainly better than yours. If you really think your opponent is so loose that he's doing this a large portion of the time with QT, go for it. Otherwise, your rather large flop bet + his effective all-in should give you enough info to fold this hand. Most of the time against a good player you're looking at KJ/KQ/JJ in this spot.

[jldecarlo]

Originally Posted by JoseRijo

I think hand #1 is one of those folds good players make. If he was on a draw (or bluffing), he would've pushed. The (relatively) smallish raise is begging for a call.

I have to agree here. The pot is laying less than 3:1 and I am only 20% or so to boat. I pretty much know that I need a boat to win. Even with implied odds, I'm less than the 4:1 I need to make this call.

The other hand is harder. This player could have K-little suited very easily. He has a big stack and isn't afraid to use it.

BTW in the first hand, I was facing TT. In the second it was KTo.

L

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

I have to agree here. The pot is laying less than 3:1 and I am only 20% or so to boat. I pretty much know that I need a boat to win. Even with implied odds, I'm less than the 4:1 I need to make this call.

The other hand is harder. This player could have K-little suited very easily. He has a big stack and isn't afraid to use it.

BTW in the first hand, I was facing TT. In the second it was KTo.

L

Did you go broke in both? At least in the second hand you have aces, queens, jacks, 7s, and whatever card comes on the turn to split.

[Maegnus]

1) clearly the only reason you are in the hand to see a flop is cuz your are BB, so I'd be damn cautious (even flopping a set) with Q4, it's a garbage hand... a lot beats you for that kind of money, if I got raised anywhere in the hand I would fold. but that's just me, I'm ridiculously tight