RAZZ Hand for discussion

w16227 · #1 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:11 PM

OK - this is a good example of RAZZ strategy for those learning the game.

Second round of razz - 16 player (2 table) tourney. Ditto has not been out of line with starting hand selection so far. He plays ABC razz - betting with best hand and check-calling with draws.

PokerStars Game #10208082809: Tournament #51170906, HORSE (Razz Limit) - Level VIII (270/540) - 2007/05/31 - 23:01:52 (ET)
Table '51170906 1' 8-max
Seat 1: NoSLOUCH (3279 in chips)
Seat 2: w16227 (3445 in chips)
Seat 3: Allante (3231 in chips)
Seat 4: Quetzlcoatl (3247 in chips)
Seat 5: pbfloyd (5372 in chips)
Seat 6: Kibaraus (5894 in chips)
Seat 7: Clockwork (702 in chips)
Seat 8: DITTO333 (6830 in chips)
NoSLOUCH: posts the ante 54
w16227: posts the ante 54
Allante: posts the ante 54
Quetzlcoatl: posts the ante 54
pbfloyd: posts the ante 54
Kibaraus: posts the ante 54
Clockwork: posts the ante 54
DITTO333: posts the ante 54
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to NoSLOUCH [Kh]
Dealt to w16227 [7c Ac 2s]
Dealt to Allante [7s]
Dealt to Quetzlcoatl [Qh]
Dealt to pbfloyd [Qd]
Dealt to Kibaraus [Jh]
Dealt to Clockwork [Js]
Dealt to DITTO333 [2d]
NoSLOUCH: brings in for 81
w16227: raises 189 to 270
Allante: folds
Quetzlcoatl: folds
pbfloyd: folds
Kibaraus: folds
Clockwork: folds
DITTO333: calls 270
NoSLOUCH: folds
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to w16227 [7c Ac 2s] [5d]
Dealt to DITTO333 [2d] [5c]
w16227: bets 270
DITTO333: calls 270
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to w16227 [7c Ac 2s 5d] [2h]
Dealt to DITTO333 [2d 5c] [Qs]
DITTO333: bets 540

Our Move?

littlebu · #2 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:19 PM

I would call with the intent to raise on 6th street if I draw a card that makes my hand appear better. FWIW I'm still learning Razz and I'm probably wrong.

imthatguy · #3 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:27 PM

I'm still fairly new to razz as well, but that looks like a call to me, with the intent of raising the next street as long as 9 or lower appears. I don't buy his draw.

BrettButter · #4 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:28 PM

The queen makes a hand for him, and you're still drawing to any hand. Standard bet to try and get the paired board to fold, but having Q,9 or Q,8 made is not completely out of the question.

I would call here, and see what 6th brings. Your draw is very good, and there's not a lot of small cards exposed, especially with only one pre-flop caller. There's also an argument to raise..but I like keeping it a tad smaller, in case you get a wacky hand like two pair on 6th and really need to get away.

imthatguy · #5 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettButter

The queen makes a hand for him, and you're still drawing to any hand. Standard bet to try and get the paired board to fold, but having Q,9 or Q,8 made is not completely out of the question.

I would call here, and see what 6th brings. Your draw is very good, and there's not a lot of small cards exposed, especially with only one pre-flop caller. There's also an argument to raise..but I like keeping it a tad smaller, in case you get a wacky hand like two pair on 6th and really need to get away.

What hand in Razz would include a Queen? Am I missing something, or is the strategy the LOWEST possible hand? Most winning hands in Razz start with a card lower than 9... Right?

BrettButter · #6 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imthatguy

What hand in Razz would include a Queen? Am I missing something, or is the strategy the LOWEST possible hand? Most winning hands in Razz start with a card lower than 9... Right?

Most, but w is behind in this hand.

He has Q,x,x,x,x made, assuming he isn't on a complete BS bluff.
w does not have a registering 5-card hand yet.

The other guy saw a board pair for w, and might have bet just to try and knock him off of it, since he still has to draw. A few unlucky runners and w might not make a hand better than Q, or might only make a J or a 10.

jdunford · #7 (**permalink**) 05-31-2007, 11:13 PM

Definitely call. Might get interesting (in a bad way) on 6th street if we pair another card or get a K or Q, though...

By the way, I've never played a HORSE tournament online. Do they usually have such wonky levels?

ante = 54
bring-in = 81
sb = 270
bb = 540

Wtf? Live, this level would obviously be rounded to 50-75-250-500 or 50-100-250-500 (my preference). Do the blinds adjust based on number of players or something (i.e. based on average M)?

bolgenmod · #8 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 12:30 PM

This is exactly the kind of hand that gets me in trouble in the few HORSE tournaments I have played: I start out with an excellent low, but 5th street pairs me. And I never know what to do.

Yes, the villain may have a made Q low, but how can you fold for one bet? But the problem is, if you call here, won't you be committed to see the hand through to the end? One other issue: even if you catch good, he might have better than an A7 in the hole and catch better (especially since you say he is ABC). Against a tricky player (like W himself), calling is easier: he may have me beat, or he may think that betting against me will make me fold. What does the villain think of your play W? That might make a difference too: is it a thin value bet with a weak made hand (Q high low) or a semi-bluff with any hand (made low or not) that he thinks you cannot call now that you have paired?

I would probably call, take off a card, realize I can't fold for one more bet again (unless I caught another pair), and end up losing more than half my stack on this hand. (Or conversely, I fold, and he shows me A5 in the hole for a worse hand than mine!) But I suck at razz. I am interested to see what you would do W.

(My new razz mantra will be: WWWD?

)

DoubleDeuce · #9 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 12:41 PM

Call. There are so few brick cards for you: 3 Kings, 1 deuce, 2 fives, the case queen. Technically if an ace or a 7 hits thats bad but they are actually very good scare cards.

You've got 12 outs to a strong hand (3s,4s,6s) and 16 total if you include 8s for a made hand.

I don't know the actual math but 16 outs vs 7 bricks looks like a great ratio. Your opponent is obviously trying to push you out of the hand since a Q high is a weak holding.

imthatguy · #10 (**permalink**) 06-01-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettButter

Most, but w is behind in this hand.

He has Q,x,x,x,x made, assuming he isn't on a complete BS bluff.
w does not have a registering 5-card hand yet.

The other guy saw a board pair for w, and might have bet just to try and knock him off of it, since he still has to draw. A few unlucky runners and w might not make a hand better than Q, or might only make a J or a 10.

I still think I'm calling here. Q high rarely wins.