[timsta007]

This recount is mine copied from a post on a different forum as part of my recount of my night and I was curious what the chiptalk strat. brain trust would have to say about it.

The situation/backround is I'm sitting at a 2/3NL $200 max buyin game in a local cardroom with about $460 in front of me. The table is relatively weak/tight and for the most part unsophisticated. I've been playing ABC poker and have a moderately Tight Aggressive image.

The table was very limpy (lots of limped pots) and on the Big Blind the pot was limped to me holding Q4o in the BB (18 in the pot). the flop was Ac,Qh,4h and one guy leads out for 10. I pop it to 35 and another guy calls that bet and the original raiser calls as well (125 in the pot). I'm puting the original raiser on top pair, and the other guy on a very big flushdraw (probably something like KJ or KT of hearts) the turn is a 6s which looks like a great card for me. I bet 100 in to the pot which is now at about 120. The guy I think that has a flush draw goes into the tank big time and I'm thinking for sure he has the big flush/straight draw. I ask if he's on a big draw and he looks up and then immediately pushes all in for 300 total (200 more). The other guy basically instacalls, and I'm basically ******. I'm still thinking that the guy has a flush draw but I can't be sure. He could have a better two pair, he could have the Ahxh giving him tons of outs and the main problem is the third guy that instacalled. I have to put him on a strong hand, maybe filling up on the 6 for two pair (A6). The other problem is that it was an unraised pot so I couldn't rule anything out for what they all had. Ultimately I decide to fold face up (mistake I know, but not the point of my post). The pusher shows Ah8h and the other guy shows A7, they both have just one pair and the river helps noone so my 2 pair would have been good. I'll admit I was pretty irritated in the way this hand went down but I am pretty sure I made the right decision to lay down here. Any thought about this hand? my Q4 two pair is such a relatively weak hand at this stage... and I didn't want to risk my whole stack feeling I could get a better spot.

[Wedge Rock]

Sounds like your read on the first guy was spot on, but the other guy makes me nervous. Bottom two against two other hands, especially ones willing to raise and insta-call, is a frightening prospect. Even if you are thinking 4 outs to a boat, you gotta wonder if its going to be good. Because A-4 can be limpable PF. First player might have been on a draw, but did Mr. Insta-call have top two? It was limpy, so maybe he felt better limping PF with a drawing hand.

I would have folded too, I think. What were the chip stacks of the other two in the hand?

[shadesofgrey]

I do that kind of stuff all the time. I give my opp's too much credit in a weak laggy game... I am just a wee bit to tag-ish sometimes.

That perceived flush bet would have gotten me out of the hand too.

It comes down to knowing / reading the players, and sometimes its better to err on the side of caution. even if you kick yourself afterwards.

tough hand.

on the brighter side, by showing your hand to the other players, they know you are there to play quality hands vs. Ace-weak.. that kind of play will deserve respect and you may be able to use that to your advantage in future hands.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by timsta007

The table is relatively weak/tight and for the most part unsophisticated. I've been playing ABC poker and have a moderately Tight Aggressive image.

Not sure weak tight is a good description for the guy pushing. Or for that many limps preflop.

The table was very limpy (lots of limped pots) and on the Big Blind the pot was limped to me holding Q4o in the BB (18 in the pot). the flop was Ac,Qh,4h and one guy leads out for 10. I pop it to 35 and another guy calls that bet and the original raiser calls as well (125 in the pot). I'm puting the original raiser on top pair, and the other guy on a very big flushdraw (probably something like KJ or KT of hearts) the turn is a 6s which looks like a great card for me. I bet 100 in to the pot which is now at about 120. The guy I think that has a flush draw goes into the tank big time and I'm thinking for sure he has the big flush/straight draw. I ask if he's on a big draw and he looks up and then immediately pushes all in for 300 total (200 more).

Why would you tell him what you think he has?

The other guy basically instacalls, and I'm basically ******. I'm still thinking that the guy has a flush draw but I can't be sure. He could have a better two pair, he could have the Ahxh giving him tons of outs and the main problem is the third guy that instacalled. I have to put him on a strong hand, maybe filling up on the 6 for two pair (A6). The other problem is that it was an unraised pot so I couldn't rule anything out for what they all had. Ultimately I decide to fold face up (mistake I know, but not the point of my post). The pusher shows Ah8h and the other guy shows A7, they both have just one pair and the river helps noone so my 2 pair would have been good. I'll admit I was pretty irritated in the way this hand went down but I am pretty sure I made the right decision to lay down here. Any thought about this hand? my Q4 two pair is such a relatively weak hand at this stage... and I didn't want to risk my whole stack feeling I could get a better spot.

That's pretty much all I'd be worried about. I wouldn't call your two pair weak. If one has an Ace, he's down to 5 outs - his 3 kicker outs and the other two Aces. A better Q only 3 outs. A pair and FD is all you have to worry about, which is still behind and only one card to come. If he pushed the flop, this would be a tougher decision, but as is, no way I fold.

[timsta007]

Originally Posted by Poboy

Not sure weak tight is a good description for the guy pushing. Or for that many limps preflop.

***in 2 hours at the table this was one of the few times anyone made a big play at a pot prior to the river. The only other big aggressive stack push happened preflop when KK was against AA.

Originally Posted by Poboy

Why would you tell him what you think he has?

***I agree with you on this one. It was pretty stupid and is one of the reasons I ended up in the bad situation. Lesson learned.

Originally Posted by Poboy

That's pretty much all I'd be worried about. I wouldn't call your two pair weak. If one has an Ace, he's down to 5 outs - his 3 kicker outs and the other two Aces. A better Q only 3 outs. A pair and FD is all you have to worry about, which is still behind and only one card to come. If he pushed the flop, this would be a tougher decision, but as is, no way I fold.

If he has a naked Ace, he has 8 outs, 5 for two pair plus three more if the turn card (6) gets paired which would counterfit my two pair. Same is true for for a better queen. He can win with his kicker pairing, the ace pairing, or the six pairing 9 outs. A pair and a flush draw was a possibility as the pair would have been top pair (the ace).

[timsta007]

Originally Posted by Wedge Rock

Sounds like your read on the first guy was spot on, but the other guy makes me nervous. Bottom two against two other hands, especially ones willing to raise and insta-call, is a frightening prospect. Even if you are thinking 4 outs to a boat, you gotta wonder if its going to be good. Because A-4 can be limpable PF. First player might have been on a draw, but did Mr. Insta-call have top two? It was limpy, so maybe he felt better limping PF with a drawing hand.

I would have folded too, I think. What were the chip stacks of the other two in the hand?

Honenstly, it was the instacaller that made up my mind to fold here. I didn't put him on a drawing hand and figured that my initial read of his Top pair only was either wrong, or he filled up. Turns out my gut feeling was right after all but his quick call is what ultimately made me fold. I didn't see how my flopped bottom two pair was still good with that much action. I think I probably would have called if I was heads up against the pusher.

[TheMightyJim2k]

this is a classic small pot poker hand. I probably would have check-called on the flop. Check called or check/raised the turn. Your hand is relatively weak compared to the possible draws, and you are out of position which makes it especially hard to play.

no need to pump the pot with a big flop bet, and then another big turn bet.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by timsta007

If he has a naked Ace, he has 8 outs, 5 for two pair plus three more if the turn card (6) gets paired which would counterfit my two pair. Same is true for for a better queen. He can win with his kicker pairing, the ace pairing, or the six pairing 9 outs. A pair and a flush draw was a possibility as the pair would have been top pair (the ace).

sorry. Posting during a commercial , didn't take enough time. Still, you're ahead of all the possibilities. I'm happy when my opponents are putting money in with 9 outs and one card to come. I'm not thrilled about the Ax , but you don't make money when your opponents have nothing.

You could play small pot like Jim said, but making the draws cheap sucks. Sometimes these hands come up and you have to stick your money in when you think you're best. And if you're going to make the turn bet there, I don't get folding to the raise. If both players just call, the pot's $420 on the river. $320 if one folds. How do you not put in ~$200 anyway (assuming brick) on the river?

[timsta007]

Poboy,

I guess my response to that would be that it shocked me that the guy moved all in. The table had been so weak/tight that having this guy push in $300 really gave me pause to think about if my hand was good. On top of that, the instacall from the other player slowed me down as well. The thing that I had to consider was that despite there being ~600 in the pot at this point with only 200 more for me to call, if my two pair is beat here I'm drawing to 4 outs, or maybe 2 outs if I'm dominated as well. All this discussion about calling against hands that I have beat is fine and good. If I could see their hands I would have called against the A 8 and Ax all day knowing that I'm still only a 59.5% chance for my 2pr to hold up. But If I'm beat by either player I lose the 500 main pot, and if I'm beat by the reraiser I lose the whole thing (assuming I don't suckout with a 2-4 outer). Really it was the uncommon willingness to push back and commit his whole stack that made me decide to fold. If I had a better two pair I probably would have been in there, but the seemingly harmless turned 6 could have made either of these guy's hands since it was an unraised pot.

Thanks for the feedback all. Useful info.