[Colquhoun]

Originally Posted by rowlin

My questions are:

(1) Should I play in a game where I am unequivically outclassed by a few players, but maybe not-so-much by a lot of the field?

(2) With most people starting at 30-50 BB, but with much bigger stacks once things get going, should I try to (a) start deep or (b) play more, smaller buy-ins? I remember a good thread about this topic relating to HSP and the way that Greenstein and Forest were buying in as opposed to Negreanu and Brunson, but I am wondering if the considerations are different in this type of game.

(3) At what point am I satisfied post-flop with five or six players in the pot likely to call even a 5-6 BB bet? Like jojo said, the (Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth terminology) top pair hands are worth less in this type of game than speculative hands.

(4) What is the best free software tool to look at my pot equity with different holdings and multiple other hands out there? Are there any good exercises or situations I should focus on?

I know that experience is the best way to improve, but I am looking for a way to accelerate my learning process. Other than "Small Stakes Holdem", which I have read, and "NLHE: Theory and Practice", which I have not, are there any other good reads (books or forums) that will help?

(1) What I have read fom Ed Miller, and seen in practice is that it only takes one donk at the table to make the whole table profittable.
(2) I always buy-in the max amount...I'm not focused on how much I can lose at a sitting, but more afraid of not having enough when I really need it.
(3) Keep an eye on those possible draws, and don't put in huge bets without the nuts.
(4) No help there, sorry....

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by rowlin

(1) Should I play in a game where I am unequivically outclassed by a few players, but maybe not-so-much by a lot of the field?

If there's even one mega-donk at the table, sit down. One double-up from the fish is all you need. Just make sure you avoid the good players as best as possible.

Originally Posted by rowlin

(2) With most people starting at 30-50 BB, but with much bigger stacks once things get going, should I try to (a) start deep or (b) play more, smaller buy-ins? I remember a good thread about this topic relating to HSP and the way that Greenstein and Forest were buying in as opposed to Negreanu and Brunson, but I am wondering if the considerations are different in this type of game.

Depends on how confident you are with your post-flop game. If you're very confident, the deeper the better. If you're not confident, then a shorter stack might be in order. A shorter stack makes your post-flop play a lot more straight-forward. Deeper stacks allow you to get trickier... but if the other players are better, you can forget about it.

Originally Posted by rowlin

(3) At what point am I satisfied post-flop with five or six players in the pot likely to call even a 5-6 BB bet? Like jojo said, the (Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth terminology) top pair hands are worth less in this type of game than speculative hands.

The biggest transition from tournies to cash games is realizing what is and is not a good hand. In tournaments, top pair top kicker is usually a hand you're ready to push with. In a cash game, you're just asking to get busted, and you want to make money from people overplaying these hands, not give it away yourself. I'm always satisfied if I'm getting 6 people going to the flop with me. Sure, it sucks when you raise 6xBB with AKo and get 5 callers, but if QJT comes, you will very likely get someone to pay you off. Again, you just have to be able to let marginal hands go in this situation.

Originally Posted by rowlin

(4) What is the best free software tool to look at my pot equity with different holdings and multiple other hands out there? Are there any good exercises or situations I should focus on?

http://pokerstove.com
I think this tool is a lot more helpful in tournaments, where you're making decisions that are much more based on estimates. For example, someone pushes and you're going to estimate their possible hands, and look at the pot odds. In cash games, this rarely comes up. You can look at preflop and post-flop odds, but in general, you're trying to get your money in way ahead in a cash game, not make all-in preflop decisions where you're a 55% favorite.

Originally Posted by rowlin

(5) Other than "Small Stakes Holdem", which I have read, and "NLHE: Theory and Practice", which I have not, are there any other good reads (books or forums) that will help? I know that experience is the best way to improve, but I am looking for a way to accelerate my learning process.

HOH1 is a good read for deep stack games, since it gives you a lot of the common terminology. I like Phil Gordon's book, but it's mostly just a fun, light read. There's not a whole lot of theory in there. But it does have a lot of great beginner/intermediate tips that will get you on the right track. I'm assuming the new 2+2 book will be really helpful. Due out in March, I think? NLHETAP is pretty dense. I haven't even finished reading the whole thing. Depending on the stakes and types of games you play in, it may or may not be worth reading. I mean, it's worth reading, just how soon you need to read it depends on the games you're in.

[TheMightyJim2k]

I've played about 75,000 hands of low limit hold'em in the last 5 months, and I have learned A LOT about the game. Speaking specifically of wild loose low limit hold'em, I actually have to disagree with several of shades points below. Now I could be wrong about this stuff, or more importantly there are probably more than one way to beat this game. But if you put in the time to really study and play these games you learn optimal strategy for beating loose postflop donkeys.

#1 loose aggro preflop - tight aggro post flop. always aggressive...

be very aggressive with big hands aka AA-TT, AKs, AKo, AQs. capping is most often not wrong with these hands preflop. However loosening up preflop should not result in raising pf with hands like 98s, 77, KQo. These are hands that should be played, but unless you are able to isolate a single bad playing limper, you usually just want to limp along with the rest and see a cheap flop with large implied odds. Don't go aggro pf with hands that are marginal, even if you have position, even if there are a bunch of limpers. You gain nothing by it.

#2 dont wait for monster starting hands... you'll go broke waiting for a monster & get sucked out on it when you do hit.

you won't get sucked out as much as you think, the are hugely +EV, but shades is right you can't sit around waiting on them.

#3 you'll go broke chasing cards.

chasing cards with the right odds is always, I REPEAT ALWAYS, the right thing to do in limit HE. That means if you have bottom pair on a no straight no flush board and you are getting 8-1 to call a bet to close out the flop YOU CALL!. You likely have 5 outs to trips or two pair, and win you hit your hand you will get paid off. Most likely you will miss and just muck on the turn, but if you aren't making these plays: calling with overs and a backdoor flush, middle pair and a gutshot, flush draws, straight draws, single pair getting odds to two pair or trips, gutshots, pkt pairs with odds to hit a set on the turn, THEN YOU ARE MISSING OUT IN EV.(and yes there are situations where you will get 22-1 on the flop to call with 88 on a board of 6TA to try to hit a set)

#4 In bingo based poker games, I see position as having much more value than in normal games. Esp when in position with quality starting hands. Make them pay to see anything. If you wiff the flop, run... or bet accordingly.

I very much disagree with this. in these games players will call down with anything. position rarely means much other than you get to close out the action so you can see if you can call a bet with weak draws. Continuation bets will not be respected. bluffing and semi-bluffing because you raised pf is usually a waste of time. The one time that position plays a huge advantage is the free card play. You can raise in late position with a draw and everyone will passively check to you on the turn and you can take a free card to the river. other than this position is not that important. You should loosen up in later spots with marginal hands, but it isnt like NL where you can make moves pf because you have position on players, and just take pots away.

#5 watch the betting patterns of other players. Esp watch for good moves.... check / re-raises are always suspect. watch for bad moves.... Note anyone willing to just call down bets, or those that bluff... (IMO - bluffing is a bad idea in these games, most of the time)... Traps are great... watch and see if others trap as well.

good advice to always watch the betting patterns of players. It is especially important to note that if a fish raises or checkraises you on the turn or river, throw away your marginal hand if you have no redraws. Fish are usually very very passive and when they raise they have a good hand.

#6 play them as a group - meaning if there is a group of three people in a row that will check or play as a calling station, let them have the action, and follow their moves (call/check) - hope they raise... try and keep them in the hand and build a pot - IF you think you can beat them with your cards.

Take advantage of this by getting into pots with them with marginal hands like Q9s and try to hit the flop hard. Don't try to run them over with a pair on the flop just because they don't show aggression.

#7 Watch pot odds like a hawk.... there are times when any two cards vs. the pot size simply dictate you must be in the hand. if you miss the flop so be it... but get your money into the action when it has the best opportunity for a good payoff. Think 3:1 on your money.

see my above talk about pot odds and draws. This is great advice from shades, but think beyond 3:1. Know all of the pot odds situations and think about when 4:1 is good, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, 8.5:1, and 11:1.

#8 Try and get as many people out as early as possible.... this goes back to playing aggressive, but I look at getting people out as an investment in the pot. the fewer people who have a chance to draw, improve, and collect the winnings against me the better.

Won't work, and is actually -EV. let the donkeys in, and value bet them to death. when you have a good hand bet and raise as much as possible. when you don't check-call or check-fold don't worry about chasing out players, ESPECIALLY not with marginal hands just because you are in late position.

#9 DO NOT LOOSE YOUR COOL.... Suck outs are very very common....Not going tilt at these games is hard, but keeping your head cool and wits straight goes a long way in these kind of games. expect bad beats.

very very true. don't just expect bad beats, expect to deliver bad beats. When you hit your gutter on the river and take a 21bet pot don't listen to the guy telling you that you had no chance being in there. If you had the odds it was the right play.

#10 always know what the nuts are and the number of outs you have. I pass time by trying to guess what the other players have in their hands..... helps me put a read on them if I get into action against them.

good advice for all games and all times. Learn to figure odds that might exist that you dont realize. Example with AA when you are up against two pair, and the board pairing the bottom card gives you a better two pair. Or if you have an A with a weak kicker, how many outs will nullify the kickers and have both players playing with their A and four board cards.

shades gave some really good advice, and I'm just trying to refine it a little bit to specifically low limit (emphasize on the fact that it is limit) hold'em games.

gl and hopes that helps some.

[TheMightyJim2k]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

http://pokerstove.com
I think this tool is a lot more helpful in tournaments, where you're making decisions that are much more based on estimates. For example, someone pushes and you're going to estimate their possible hands, and look at the pot odds. In cash games, this rarely comes up. You can look at preflop and post-flop odds, but in general, you're trying to get your money in way ahead in a cash game, not make all-in preflop decisions where you're a 55% favorite.

gotta disagree with you there. in a tourney I don't want to be playing as a 55% favorite for my tourney life because you are 1 and done. But in a cash game I'll take that slim equity advantage all day. I think what you are trying to say is that if you are playing deep stacked cash play you rarely have to make the kind of pf equity decisions that you do in a tournament. More than likely all of the money is getting in on the turn or river (occasionally flop) and most of the time someone is a clear favorite by that point and not a coinflip small pair against an AK.

just wanted to point out that a slim +EV play in cash is usually a better option than a slim +EV play in a tournament that can cost you your tournament life. The hope is that we can avoid those marginal situations so it isn't a problem

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

gotta disagree with you there. in a tourney I don't want to be playing as a 55% favorite for my tourney life because you are 1 and done. But in a cash game I'll take that slim equity advantage all day. I think what you are trying to say is that if you are playing deep stacked cash play you rarely have to make the kind of pf equity decisions that you do in a tournament. More than likely all of the money is getting in on the turn or river (occasionally flop) and most of the time someone is a clear favorite by that point and not a coinflip small pair against an AK.

just wanted to point out that a slim +EV play in cash is usually a better option than a slim +EV play in a tournament that can cost you your tournament life. The hope is that we can avoid those marginal situations so it isn't a problem

Yeah, I explained that pretty badly. If you know you're a 55% favorite preflop, obviously you would take that all day in a cash game. It just very rarely comes up. The only conceivable situation I can think of (assuming they're not total LAGs) is QQ vs. AKs, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone willing to go all-in with AK preflop in a deep-stacked cash game.

[shadesofgrey]

Great post Jim2k!!! I agree with much that you said.

I should have said I based my comments on playing NL... I very rarely play limit... I think thats why you disagree with some of my comments.

Originally Posted by rowlin

(1) Should I play in a game where I am unequivically outclassed by a few players, but maybe not-so-much by a lot of the field?

(2) With most people starting at 30-50 BB, but with much bigger stacks once things get going, should I try to (a) start deep or (b) play more, smaller buy-ins? I remember a good thread about this topic relating to HSP and the way that Greenstein and Forest were buying in as opposed to Negreanu and Brunson, but I am wondering if the considerations are different in this type of game.

(3) At what point am I satisfied post-flop with five or six players in the pot likely to call even a 5-6 BB bet? Like jojo said, the (Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth terminology) top pair hands are worth less in this type of game than speculative hands.

(4) What is the best free software tool to look at my pot equity with different holdings and multiple other hands out there? Are there any good exercises or situations I should focus on?

(5) Other than "Small Stakes Holdem", which I have read, and "NLHE: Theory and Practice", which I have not, are there any other good reads (books or forums) that will help? I know that experience is the best way to improve, but I am looking for a way to accelerate my learning process.

Not sure if you're partially referring to last Mondays night NL home game, but that is tough game with big payoffs... I've been playing there for over 15-years. lets just leave it at there were some very lucky hands/players that night. I play with those guys a couple times a week at different places, so part of it is just learning how others are playing their game. like online, long term it works out.

I will say this, its not uncommon to play a large tourny at a bar, and end up with the same table you were playing at.

This will be out of context for most, but based on last mondays game here is what I have to say.

1- The old guy who looks like santa will pay you off all night So will my dad - LOL
2- You quickly set a TAG table image.... Once they think you're TAG, switch gears more.. From what I saw ( and I am no expert ), you picked your spots well - the others played loose and got lucky - i think they were just feeling you out. you could put more money in front of you, but until you're comfy and know who to pick your battles with be careful. Its one thing to lose 30BB quickly, its mind numbing to loose 100BB quickly. although, having more money in front of you give you the opportunity to win more - you can also loose more. just set a limit, and when/if you hit it, leave...
3- they are playing pot odds.. albeit poorly with any two cards.
4- pokerstove
5- nothing to suggest that hasnt been suggested...

Rowlin, you know there are weekly $20 tournies all over town & they usually have an easier cash game afterward. Copper Monkey in beavertown is the best, Viper Room on hawthorne, and Katie Obriens on sandy (where my little bro bar tends)...

Katie Obriens cash game as of late has been the easiest & I am sure you'd get comped beers from my brother

[smoore]

Even if you're playing every hand up front, once that flop is on the table you're playing TIGHT-AGGRESSIVE. Few checks, fewer calls, a good amount of raising and a whole bunch of betting.

Originally Posted by yeltzen

The biggest transition from tournies to cash games is realizing what is and is not a good hand.

Quoted for truthiness. There are only two "great" hands in a NLHE cash game *preflop*: AA and KK. Everything else is relative to the stacks.

The whole idea of "playing every hand" is that you're going to use your poker skill to outplay people after the flop. You're playing under the assumption that, "any two cards can flop a full house!" Don't go limping into every hand if there are good, aggressive players at the table... unless they are playing along with ya!

Play all these cheap hands to exploit the passive weakness of the opposition. You are only playing because they either aren't raising or aren't raising enough. One habitual preflop raiser is enough to ruin it.

If nominal (5x) preflop raises are called nearly as much as the blinds are you can still play like this, just actually look at your cards. You'll need higher flush cards... 86s isn't playable anymore. 67o just dropped off the list too.

Try not to tangle with the other aggressive players.

Play like this for awhile and you'll have a whole new respect for suited 1-gappers

After a couple weeks of playing you can start to tell which of the aggressive players are actually skilled and which ones are FoS.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

chasing cards with the right odds is always, I REPEAT ALWAYS, the right thing to do in limit HE. That means if you have bottom pair on a no straight no flush board and you are getting 8-1 to call a bet to close out the flop YOU CALL!. You likely have 5 outs to trips or two pair, and win you hit your hand you will get paid off. Most likely you will miss and just muck on the turn, but if you aren't making these plays: calling with overs and a backdoor flush, middle pair and a gutshot, flush draws, straight draws, single pair getting odds to two pair or trips, gutshots, pkt pairs with odds to hit a set on the turn, THEN YOU ARE MISSING OUT IN EV.

So long as you are calculating your pot odds correctly, w/implieds and reverse implieds. You need to make sure for example, you account for your two pair getting counterfeited, or improving to the second best hand.







I think the original post was re:NL.
What I don't like about smoore's approach is that very loose passive is going to land you in marginal situations, or as above, a chance at being counterfeited. Calculating implieds is harder in NL because of varying stack sizes.
I wouldn't play tight, but by the book. Like it says in SSHE, you can play more hands in loose games, but don't go overboard with any two.

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

gotta disagree with you there. in a tourney I don't want to be playing as a 55% favorite for my tourney life because you are 1 and done. But in a cash game I'll take that slim equity advantage all day. I think what you are trying to say is that if you are playing deep stacked cash play you rarely have to make the kind of pf equity decisions that you do in a tournament. More than likely all of the money is getting in on the turn or river (occasionally flop) and most of the time someone is a clear favorite by that point and not a coinflip small pair against an AK.

I'm with Matt Matros on this.
http://cardplayer.com/author/article/all/162/4080

[smoore]

Originally Posted by Poboy

What I don't like about smoore's approach is that very loose passive is going to land you in marginal situations

Yeah, it's a matter of style. I'm looking for those marginal situations if I think I'm better than the others. I understand your consternation, I was there about 6mos ago.

Who's got that link to the "seven stages of a poker player"?

I'm perpetually in stage "hubris".

[Dissolved]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I would say step 1 is to lose the attitude. Then worry about strategy.

I don't have any Attitude. Im simply looking for advice.


One thing about some games I go to is the flops Are not always cheap. about 80% of the time there is a 3-5x BB rasie. Most of the time the rasiers are aggressive (rasieing k3o, kjo, a3s, etc...)

Im shocked this thread took off so much. Thanks for all the Posts, I'll have to adjust my play on the Fly according to the table play.