[FL70]

I'm in our monthly tourney and it's down to 5. One big stack (~6500), two mediums (~3500) and two shorts (~1500) - I am, of course, one of the smalls. Payout is top 3, blinds are 200/400 and I'm OTB. First two players fold and I look down to QhJh. SB is the other short stack and BB is the big stack. I think for 2 seconds and push. SB folds and BB hesitantly calls.

He flips 8h7h, so I'm pretty far ahead (about 2:1). The bad part is I'm dealing and that can only be bad news. Of course I deal an 8 in the flop and a 7 on the turn to seal my fate.

Question → After the hand, I started thinking that possibly I should have min-raised, being that the AI from a short stack is almost certainly a sign of desperation and that any decent hand for the BB should be a call. Whereas a min raise from a short stack might give him pause - possibly indicating a powerful hand trying to encourage action.

Whatcha think?

[jojobinks]

i think no. this is FPS (fancy play syndrome). if you have some sick read on the guy, and he you know he's gonna "know" you have AA, then okay. but under normal circumstances, it just doesn't work enough.

the truth is your fold equity is pretty poor here and i'd seriously consider folding rather than playing at all. QJs is kinda like KQs (anna kournikova); looks real pretty doesn't play very well. Q-hi isn't what you want to take to showdown.

[hachkc]

In this situation, nope. Your M is less than 3 and you have less than 4 BB; you past the dead zone a few hands back. Push and pray.

As to the strategy, with a bigger stack against an intelligent player and him having a certain read on you, maybe. On the same vein, what about a 1/2 stack raise. Basically says I'm willing to play for my entire stack, want to? Another way to look at this is fold equity, the bigger the raise the more you against them. Also, the smaller the raise, the better odds they get with their hand.

I've tried these plays before in the CT tournies (good players, lotta history with each other) and haven't really had any success. Tried a 1/2 stack raise against JoJo with J8s in MP and a short stack, he puts me all in with 77 without hesitation; he was around 2x my stack in middle of tourney. I got lucky and ended up with trip J's.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

the truth is your fold equity is pretty poor here and i'd seriously consider folding rather than playing at all. QJs is kinda like KQs (anna kournikova); looks real pretty doesn't play very well. Q-hi isn't what you want to take to showdown.

5 handed, 1500 at 200/400 means his M is almost negative. His hand is better than average, folded around to him on the button, I probably push here also. He only has 2 more hands till he's in the BB which is probably an autopush with ATC. I find it highly unlikely he's going to be in a much better spot in the near future.

Other question, how did you get so short stacked. You should have been pushing with your hand much earlier than this?

[scottwire]

The only way this is not an easy push is if you are on the bubble, the cash is significant to you, and another short stack is worse off than you.

Otherwise this is an easy push. QJs is a better than average hand. You can't let the blinds hit you again if you don't pick up another decent hand. I push this and a lot worse hands on the button against a big stack that will call with a lot of hands in this spot.

You got called by a worse hand which is exactly what you wanted. Its then up to probability and this time you were on the wrong end.

I disagree with Jojo here in that Q high does have showdown value. QJs also fairs well against 22-TT, Ax and Kx and is ahead of hands that will call like JT, QT, Q9, and other suited connectors like the guy called with. It will also get hands like kings with small kickers to fold.

I push QJs without hesitation 5 handed and small stacked.

[99%evil]

I'd be wary of pushing with the Big stack in the big blind, he has you well covered and will still be in good shape if he loses. With only Queen high also gives me trepidation here. I may limp here, but ...man, that's a toughy. I guess going all in is a play, just the wrong player to be trying to double through, anyone else would think twice about crippling themselves and you could take the blinds. Maybe wait for the next hand or two, if you get a KX, AX or any pair then push and hope only to steal the blinds. Try to survive at this point, try the all in maneuver against a shorter stack.

[jojobinks]

if cashing is important to you and the big stack is likely to call, i stand by my position.

you'll get two more free hands before your big blind, and there are 3 players that could bust at any time.

here's what i think happens when the big stack calls (and i guess what i mean by not so much in the showdown value category; it doensn't do all that well against a standard calling range):
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,589,018,112 games 0.047 secs 33,808,896,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.213% 40.79% 00.42% 648225108 6664400.00 { QJs }
Hand 1: 58.787% 58.37% 00.42% 927464204 6664400.00 { 22+, A5s+, KJs+, A5o+, KJo+ }

of course if you get two callers you'll be in considerably worse shape.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

if cashing is important to you and the big stack is likely to call, i stand by my position.

you'll get two more free hands before your big blind, and there are 3 players that could bust at any time.

Very true and on the bubble, I definitely agree with you. My take is given how short stacked you and the other short stack are, its basically a crapshoot. The other folks can easily take the same advice and simply wait for the 2 short stacks to bleed to death and end up ITM with minimal risk. Right now, you are facing 2 random hands and on the button. Your position only gets worse over the next 4 hands with no guarantee you'll get a better hand let alone someone else getting and even better hand. This seems like a very tight tourney, the big stack has an M of just under 11 and almost 2x the chips of anyone else.

Matter of style and knowing your opposition here.

[FL70]

Maybe it was because I was pretty card dead throughout, but pulling QJs on the button seemed like an opportune time to push. While Q-hi isn't what I want to take to a showdown, it's much better than 82 or J5 or some other random hand.

I understand the concensus seems to be "No.", but I don't see how it could hurt. I wasn't worried about getting 2 callers because the SB is the other short stack and is looking to get 3 free hands after this one. So with the big stack yet to act, unless he pulls a 1 of about 6 or 7 hands, he's folding.

I don't consider it FPS because in any event I was putting my chips in the pot - be it before the flop or after.

I guess in a sense my question really was, do I have a better chance at stealing the blinds with the min raise as opposed to the AI? As stated before I don't want to take QJs to a showdown and if I can grab 600 without a fight, all the better.

Also, we were 5-handed and paying 3. So two people would need to bust out in no more than 3 hands for me to money before the blinds force me to play a random hand.

[jojobinks]

here's why it's FPS: you're banking on making the big stack fold AT b/c he's afraid you have AA or KK? you want him to think that you think he'll call (stupidly) with JJ and he'll double you up?

what i think: he'll be more likely to call (i know, for instance, that i'm very unlikely to fold to a minraise from a small stack), with the intention of getting it good if he flops top pair with his t8.

then you get it in horrible on the flop, instead of good preflop.