[BettorGolfer]

Yesterday, played in a $75 tourney, 13 players, strange structure, but most of us started w/ 10k in chips, which is great. It's decided that top 4 get paid. I had a decent run at the first table and ran my stack up to about 16-17,000. Then the table breaks and goes to one table.

I watch a couple of shortstacks get eliminated and before I know it, there are only 5 of us left. One guy is left with $1000, doubles it, double again and again again. Needless to say, he ended up winning (lucky bas##Rd).

Anyways, my question is this. I was dealt K 3 hearts in the big blind. Two people call, as does the small blind. Flop brings two hearts. I bet 2k, 1st caller folds, and next caller who is the biggest stack at tabel, re-raises me 4k. If I call, and lose the draw, I'm crippled. I folded. I had them rabbit the cards, and the turn was a heart, giving me a flush.

My thinking was that if I could hang on, I could at least slip into fourth, in the money, then loosen up from there.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks


oh yeah, I ended up in 3rd.

[SpeakEasy]

Need to know $$ payout structure and stack sizes in the hand in question to perform some calculations and provide advice.

[scottwire]

Like Speak said, need more info, but generally I'm not betting into a pot with just a flush draw against 3 other players, 2 of whom have not yet acted.

Once you bet and get raised, we need all that other good info

[BettorGolfer]

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

Need to know $$ payout structure and stack sizes in the hand in question to perform some calculations and provide advice.

pay out structures where top 4, I was in about 5th in chips at the time. Big stack probably had me covered 4-5 times over. I had about 11k, he had 44-50k. One guy had about 6500 in chips, which if he goes out before me, I'm in the money. My thinking was, I was playing tight as hell, as I say literally no aces with a kicker above 5, and no wired pairs. Boring as all get out. I figured if I bet, I'd take it down. I did not expect to get raised out. Now I know. I had never played against this guy before.

Does that answer what you need?

[bigjohn]

Tough to call a flush draw on the bubble. For your situation it looked like it worked out for you because you got in the $$.

[yeltzen]

With that kind of hand, I either fold or push. There's no sense in calling, since at that point you're basically committing yourself to the pot anyways (depending on exactly how much you have left, although even if you had 16,000, you're now putting 6,000 into the pot on a single round of betting).

If the guy has enough chips left that he can be bluffed off the hand (unlikely), and you have seen the guy bluff-raise like this before, you can try to push. If not, you should probably fold. Being on the bubble makes a fold even better. I tend to like to push when I'm an overwhelming big stack and can afford the hit. Otherwise, I'd rather get my money in when I've got something better (like a pair with the flush draw).

[tm55417]

Originally Posted by BettorGolfer

pay out structures where top 4, I was in about 5th in chips at the time. Big stack probably had me covered 4-5 times over. I had about 11k, he had 44-50k. One guy had about 6500 in chips, which if he goes out before me, I'm in the money. My thinking was, I was playing tight as hell, as I say literally no aces with a kicker above 5, and no wired pairs. Boring as all get out. I figured if I bet, I'd take it down. I did not expect to get raised out. Now I know. I had never played against this guy before.

Does that answer what you need?

If you could also include the blinds and antes at the time and how the payout structure was divided among the top 4.

[coyote]

what were the blinds at the time, and what was the flop texture?

Was your K an overcard to the board?

[Guma]

Originally Posted by BettorGolfer

Yesterday, played in a $75 tourney, 13 players, strange structure, but most of us started w/ 10k in chips...

Apart from your play I do not understand the statement that "...most of us started w/10k in chips..."

[w16227]

Originally Posted by BettorGolfer

pay out structures where top 4, I was in about 5th in chips at the time. Big stack probably had me covered 4-5 times over. I had about 11k, he had 44-50k. One guy had about 6500 in chips, which if he goes out before me, I'm in the money. My thinking was, I was playing tight as hell, as I say literally no aces with a kicker above 5, and no wired pairs. Boring as all get out. I figured if I bet, I'd take it down. I did not expect to get raised out. Now I know. I had never played against this guy before.

Does that answer what you need?

sort of -

What were the flop cards? With 4 people seeing the flop, this is very important.

by payout structure, the group needs to know something like -

1: 400
2: 300
3: 75
4: 25

or
1: 300
2: 250
3: 150
4: 100

Both pay 800, but one has a flatter payout structure. In the 1st example, 3rd and 4th are fairly low payouts relative to the pool. The big payouts are for 1st and 2nd, so playing just to cash does not make a lot of sense. The second pays a flatter structure, so playing conservative to hit the cash is sometimes a sound strategy.

Another key to any analysis is the blind sizes. If the blinds were relatively small (like 100-200), then you have more time to play cards and do not need to be aggressive. You would probably want to check that flop and see what developed. If the blinds were high (like 1000-2000), you might want to push and risk it all there. They also help us to see if your flop bet was of a proper amount.

By stack sizes - a list of all the players stacks and realtive position to you is also helpful.

Flying blind - I would say that checking the flop would probably have been the correct move here. You only had a draw and were betting into 3 other players. You cannot assume that your K high is good, and you need to play this in a way that commits the minimum amount of your chips to the pot. What you would love to see is the player on your left put out the 2000 chip bet - and 1-2 of the other guys call. This builds a nice pot and gives you maximum return on your chips if they hit.

Bluffing (ok, smi-bluffing) into 3 players is rarely a good idea. The statistics say that one of them hit that flop and might come back over the top. This is bad in two ways - first, you need to commit more chips to keep playing. Double investing to 50% of your stack on a draw is extremely risky, and depending upon the blind sizes might dictate that you shove allin right there. so the bet has a small chance of folding the rest of the players, but a larger chance of requiring you to commit more chips on a draw. Secondly, a reraise will most likely shut out one or more of teh pther players. On a decent draw (2nd nuts), you want everyone to stay in the pot. If everyone chacks around, great. Now you see a free card to make your hand.