[warewulf]

Ok, I was at a home game yesterday:

T5000 blinds at 100/200 8 players

2nd to act limps, one other limper, button raises to 600. 2nd to act goes all in. Other limper folds. Button thinks for a while and then folds, but shows AK. Was slowplaying QQ in this situation a good idea? Why or why not.

QQ player had a medium stack, around 2500. Button had around 7500.

I was not involved in this hand but had an arguement with one of the players in the hand.

[MetalSlug3]

Originally Posted by warewulf

Ok, I was at a home game yesterday:

T5000 blinds at 100/200 8 players

2nd to act limps, one other limper, button raises to 600. 2nd to act goes all in. Other limper folds. Button thinks for a while and then folds, but shows AK. Was slowplaying QQ in this situation a good idea? Why or why not.

QQ player had a medium stack, around 2500. Button had around 7500.

I was not involved in this hand but had an arguement with one of the players in the hand.

If the player with the Queens had raised from early position, we can assume that the player with AK would have called, and a flop would be seen. The advantage of proceeding this way is that the player with the Queens could put his opponent on a range of hands, likely an Ace or a King in his hand. (But then again, the button could have called simply because he had position and a stack to do so.) This probably would have been the safest way for the player with the Queens to play the hand. Let's call this the "safer route."

So, to be really clear, in the "safer route," the player with Queens would be committing about 1/5 of his chipstack to the hand, but I suppose he would have had the safeguard of releasing his Queens if an Ace or King hit the board.

The route that this player took--to play his Queens slowly in the hopes someone would raise before the flop--was certainly risky. And re-raising all-in with them was very risky as well. Apparently, this player was willing to race with his Queens--for this tournament life--in the hopes of doubling up.

[warewulf]

Originally Posted by MetalSlug3

The route that this player took--to play his Queens slowly in the hopes someone would raise before the flop--was certainly risky. And re-raising all-in with them was very risky as well. Apparently, this player was willing to race with his Queens--for this tournament life--in the hopes of doubling up.

With a short stack, I would be looking to get the maximum value with QQ. I believe QQ is a very vulnerable hand and should never be slow played on a full table.

Making this play with the Q's is in absolutely no way correct. The person who held QQ was very lucky that the rest of the table didn't limp. What if a few limpers enter the pot and flop something to beat the Q's. I immediatley think of Ace rag or King rag. These are two hands that will likely fold if QQ throws in a raise. W/o raising, they're getting a chance to beat you. QQ is a hand that only does well against few opponents, preferrably heads up. It needs to be raised for protection + to gain information on what your opponents are holding.

HOH v2 comes to mind -- Harrington states that it is only ok to slowplay QQ, KK, and AA on a short handed table. Personally, I take that a step further and would only consider slow playing KK or AA with 3 or less. QQ I would only slow play heads up.

Imo, slowplaying should usually only be done after the flop, when you flop a monster. And then, only if there are no draws that can beat you.

[dad604]

With blinds at 100/200 and only 2500 chips, I would push all-in. Being short stack and a premium hand, good time to try to double up.

[MetalSlug3]

Originally Posted by warewulf

Making this play with the Q's is in absolutely no way correct. . .QQ is a hand that only does well against few opponents, preferrably heads up. It needs to be raised for protection + to gain information on what your opponents are holding.

HOH v2 comes to mind -- Harrington states that it is only ok to slowplay QQ, KK, and AA on a short handed table. Personally, I take that a step further and would only consider slow playing KK or AA with 3 or less. QQ I would only slow play heads up.

Imo, slowplaying should usually only be done after the flop, when you flop a monster. And then, only if there are no draws that can beat you.

Well, I certainly respect your opinion and appreciate your point of view. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that slowplaying the Queens was the "correct" way to play them. I referred to the play as "risky" not "correct."

But, it's clear that you think that to take that kind of risk is, without question, a mistake. And it clearly sounds like Harrington thinks so too.

Still, I think it's hard in poker to argue that a play is "absolutely incorrect" just as it's hard to make an argument that a play is "absolutely correct." I'm guessing that if you were to consult say five different pros on the issue you might get several different recommendations for how to play the Queens in that situation.

In any case, I'm glad to have the opportunity to see the hand from a different angle of vision.

[jldecarlo]

I never look to limp-reraise with QQ. There is over a 40% chance of a K or A hitting the flop, and if you limp (but don't get to reraise), like warewulf said, you are likely to be against Ax or Kx, so your premium hand is now worthless.
I am so consistant about raising PF with big pairs, that I sometimes wonder if it's a hole in my game. "He limped, so he can't have KK, QQ, or JJ."

I sometimes will try the strategy with AA, but only infrequently. Aces get cracked often enough without asking the people with trash to hurt you. I lost about $25 (a huge online pot for me) last night when my AA was butsted when 8To rivered a flush. And this was despite a 4xBB preflop raise as well as bets on the flop and turn. If I just limp here, I don't even get to curse the river in this situation - I just get to feel stupid.

L

[tomb1]

Slow-playing queens is almost always a mistake, I think. If you think of QQ as being JJ, then what would you do? QQ is the same as JJ when you have a table of limpers and people are going to see a flop with Ax and Kx.

But . . . it also depends on the other players, and your (or the QQ-player's) experience with them.

If QQ was 99% SURE that one of the other players would throw in a big raise -- like somebody always tries to steal from the button with any two cards, or a big stack has been pushing everybody around -- then and only then would this play make sense. This is really like a check raise after the flop.

But it's still a dangerous play that will lose money long-term. Heck, it's dangerous to slow-play AA or KK pre-flop at a full table!

[jojobinks]

i usually go back to hoh2 on this one as well. too many players out there, stacks too shallow.

if stacks were 100bb+, that'd be different, b/c picking up the blinds is less meaningful, and having to fold the QQ on a bad flop is no big deal. in that case, trying to trap someone is ok (once in awhile).

in this case? limping is suicidal. the shortstack needs to pick up some chips so that the blinds don't eat him up.

[RTBrandy]

[quote=warewulf]I believe QQ is a very vulnerable hand and should never be slow played on a full table.

Making this play with the Q's is in absolutely no way correct. The person who held QQ was very lucky that the rest of the table didn't limp. What if a few limpers enter the pot and flop something to beat the Q's. I immediatley think of Ace rag or King rag. These are two hands that will likely fold if QQ throws in a raise. W/o raising, they're getting a chance to beat you. QQ is a hand that only does well against few opponents, preferrably heads up. It needs to be raised for protection + to gain information on what your opponents are holding.
quote]

I totally agree with Warewulf...and I hate Q's

[BigKyle]

I hate limping in early. Either raise with a good hand or fold. Just calling increases the odds of the players acting later, and being out of position does not help your cause either. I think it was Phil Gordon who wrote that when you face a tough decision on what to do in a certain spot, and one play will force you to make another hard decision later, you should always opt for the second option. I think this is an example of that sort of thing. Limp with the QQ and the hand could become very tricky on the flop, or go ahead and make a straightforward raise. I raise.