[Quads]

There was a situation lat night which was interesting, while I agree with both sides of the ruling that was made, I thought it would make a discussion.

The setting is a $2/3 No Limit game.

Preflop, and a few others limp into the pot until the action comes around to me on the button, and I visually count the pot. There is $17 buck in the pot. I say "pot" and throw out enough to cover the 17 in the pot. I throw out $20. The dealer then says "Bet is 20 buck". I stop the dealer and say "No, I announced "pot" which there is 17 buck in the pot, so the bet should be 17, my verbal action is binding" He says the bet is 20 as that's the amount I put in the pot for my bet.

FLOOR!!!

The Floor came over, examined the situation and made their ruling.

So... if you are the floor, how do you rule?

There is 17 in the pot.
Player says pot.
Player puts out 20 buck.

How much is the bet?
17 or 20?
Why?

[develvjd-]

$17.

Verbal action is binding.

If you'd said "Fifty" and then thrown out $25 do you think they would have accepted the $25 bet because that's what you threw out there. Bet not.

[luckychick]

I *think* that a declaration of a pot sized bet is only valid in pot-limit. In no limit, I don't think the dealer is allowed to count the pot for anyone (no touching the chips in the pot, and keeping track of bets is up to the player), therefore there is no way to ensure (easily) precisely what the "pot-sized" bet is in NL or limit. Your declaration of "pot" indicates a raise, therefore your $20 cannot be a call (normally just tossing a chip out greater than the bet amount, with no verbal declaration, indicates a call) and without stipulating an amount, I think the $20 stands. But I could be waaaaaaay wrong - this is just what I understand to be correct.

Edited to add:

If this was a pot limit game, and the action was post 2, post 3, call 3, call 3, call 3, call 3 (for a total of 17), and it's your turn, the maximum bet is 23, not 17 ------>your call makes the pot 20, plus 20 more is 23. I'm not sure what a verbal declaration of "pot" usually means in pot limit - what is currently in the pot, or pot plus your call.

[jldecarlo]

I don't pay pot limit games, but as I understand it, a 'pot" sized raise occurs AFTER a call, so pot in this instance would mean raising the pot after your call ($3) is added to the pot or $23 (3 to call making a pot of 20, then a raise of 20).

I don't know if you're allowed to bet the pot in no-limit games. I would guess that you are not.

L

[luckychick]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

I don't pay pot limit games, but as I understand it, a 'pot" sized raise occurs AFTER a call, so pot in this instance would mean raising the pot after your call ($3) is added to the pot or $23 (3 to call making a pot of 20, then a raise of 20).

I don't know if you're allowed to bet the pot in no-limit games. I would guess that you are not.

L

Apparently we're on the same page - I edited my post while you were typing this.

I'm certain about the $23 thing, less so about what the raise should actually be in a NL game. I know I've heard this before but I don't know where, so I don't know how accurate the info is that I'm quoting. I'm curious to hear what others say.

[Wedge Rock]

Originally Posted by develvjd-

If you'd said "Fifty" and then thrown out $25 do you think they would have accepted the $25 bet because that's what you threw out there. Bet not.

Or if he'd said "All in" and threw out a $20 chip...

I'm not sure if the dealer didn't hear you, but in that case, there was only a call...not a raise...a single over chip without a declaration is a call.

By your opening statement ("I agree with the ruling"), I don't think it was resolved at $17... But It should have been, IMHO.

[i run 8s]

correct on the bet, plus pot. Back to the original. In most places the deal does not keep track of the size unless it is a pot limit game. Calling pot, probably should have been said as $17

[luckychick]

Originally Posted by Wedge Rock

Or if he'd said "All in" and threw out a $20 chip...

I'm not sure if the dealer didn't hear you, but in that case, there was only a call...not a raise...a single over chip without a declaration is a call.

By your opening statement ("I agree with the ruling"), I don't think it was resolved at $17... But It should have been, IMHO.

$50 is a defined amount, which everyone at the table knows and understands.

All-in is also a defined amount, and players are allowed to ask the dealer "How much is the all-in?"

"Pot" is not a clear amount, and players are not (as far as I know) allowed to ask the dealer "What is the pot?" in a NL or limit game, I think (maybe I need to find a source for this?). Can you imagine a multiway pot on the river, with multiple bets and raises, then someone says "Pot". Without the chips stacked, how much is this? I guess the central issue is whether dealers can count the pot or not..... maybe I'll look for this.

[Wedge Rock]

RRoP:
Section 14: No Limit and Pot Limit

No Limit

9. If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement.

12. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)

[Wedge Rock]

Originally Posted by luckychick

$50 is a defined amount, which everyone at the table knows and understands.

All-in is also a defined amount, and players are allowed to ask the dealer "How much is the all-in?"

"Pot" is not a clear amount, and players are not (as far as I know) allowed to ask the dealer "What is the pot?" in a NL or limit game, I think (maybe I need to find a source for this?). Can you imagine a multiway pot on the river, with multiple bets and raises, then someone says "Pot". Without the chips stacked, how much is this? I guess the central issue is whether dealers can count the pot or not..... maybe I'll look for this.

I agree... but is this any different than when a person is not paying attention and action gets to them... what to they do? "How much is it to call?" If the dealer can not count the chips, Quads could have certainly said, "I bet pot and count $17".