[retravoh]

I have a co-worker who just came back from Vegas. He told me that he got busted twice for string bets. Unfortunately, he was kind of vague on the details. But, here's what he said;

He was playing a $2-$4 limit holdem ring game. In both situations, a $4 bet was made and when it came to him he put in a stack of 8 $1 chips (a raise of $4). He said that both times he did this the dealer told him it was a string bet because he did not verbally say "raise" and that he had to take back $4. That is all he told me about the situation and I told him that I didn't think that was right.

Here is what Robert's Rules say;

"String raises are not allowed. To protect your right to raise, you should either declare your intention verbally or place the proper amount of chips into the pot. Putting a full bet plus a half-bet or more into the pot is considered to be the same as announcing a raise, and the raise must be completed. (This does not apply in the use of a single chip of greater value.)"

"In tournament play, the TDA rules require that the player either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put the chips into the pot in a single motion, to avoid making a string-bet."

"At pot-limit and no-limit play, the player must either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put the chips into the pot in a single motion. Otherwise, it is a string bet."

"STRING RAISE: A bet made in more than one motion, without the declaration of a raise (not allowed)."

I just wanted to know if you guys thought that I was thinking correctly on this, or if there are places that this is really considered a string bet.

[Matthew]

It's not a string bet. But lack of verbal announcement can be considered just a call.

In my experience most places.... if the bet is 4 and you put 8 single chips out there - it's a raise. But - it is always safer to verbally anounce raise.

Conversely, if the bet was $5 and a player puts a single $25 chip out - that is a call - no verbal action.

I was in a multi table touney one time - bet was 800 I wanted to raise to 2300. I verball said "raise, 1500". Thinking I would call the 800 and add 1500 more. One player at the table (who wasn't even in the hand) threw a fit, that my raise was to 1500 total not 1500 more. I stayed quiet and let the dealer sort it out. They made it stay to a 1500 total bet - which was stupid since the min raise would be to 1600.

[jojobinks]

generally, the rule is that if you throw out a single large chip without verbal declaration (a 25, in the example given), it's considered a call.

but when you put out a stack of 8 chips, what else could that possibly mean?

sounds like a rule that was being enforced casino-wide, or just a douchey dealer.

[OnTheButton]

Don't trust all casino poker dealers to be 100% accurate.

There is a bad habit they have where either:

A. Some know-it all player tells them what to do.
or
B. They do something wrong and no one stops them.

They will get it stuck in their head that is the way to do it.

The last time we were in Vegas for the weekend, I witnessed no less than 6 dealer errors, including 2 instances of the dealer misreading the board, and wrongly awarding the pot. Most were corrected but not without the interaction of every "suit" on the floor and a camera review, which rarely shows anything. (The cameras are not able to see the cards well enough to determine much.)

But from your post, if the bet is $4 and a player puts out $8 in one motion, it is clearly an intended raise.

However "binding verbal actions" come into play when a player says "Call" and then puts out more chips than are needed, or says "Raise" and doesn't put out enough chips.

A string bet is where a player would say "Raise" and put out $8, and then (in NL or PL) reaches back and puts out another $8, surveys the table, and then goes back to his/her stack for perhaps even more. String bets are not permitted because they allow the bettor to evaluate the other players as they add to their raise to get a reaction as they stack up chips infront of them.

A string bet combined with binding verbal actions, is also designed to eliminated the "I've watch too much poker in old movies bet" where a player will say, "I call the $4, and raise you to $8." That won't fly since the "I call" preceeded the action and must be held as the final action. This type of action again, is to elicit a response from a player or players.

[Harlequin011]

Originally Posted by Matthew

It's not a string bet. But lack of verbal announcement can be considered just a call.

In my experience most places.... if the bet is 4 and you put 8 single chips out there - it's a raise. But - it is always safer to verbally anounce raise.

Conversely, if the bet was $5 and a player puts a single $25 chip out - that is a call - no verbal action.

I was in a multi table touney one time - bet was 800 I wanted to raise to 2300. I verball said "raise, 1500". Thinking I would call the 800 and add 1500 more. One player at the table (who wasn't even in the hand) threw a fit, that my raise was to 1500 total not 1500 more. I stayed quiet and let the dealer sort it out. They made it stay to a 1500 total bet - which was stupid since the min raise would be to 1600.

Well the player throwing the fit is wrong and you announced. "raise 1500" is just that, you should've spoke up. It's not "raise to" it's a raise of 1500. I just ate some guys lunch in a tournament over this very same scenario.

[Wedge Rock]

I would agree with the comments above. Eight $1 chips in a single motion is a raise, whether declared or not -- unless house policy determines otherwise, but I would venture to say this would be an unusual house policy.

My guess is that you are only getting 1/2 the story... He may have two-fisted it...put in four $1 chips with his left, followed shortly by four more $1 chips with his right... that would be a string bet.

Best advice is announce your intentions... and be specific... I usually give the "to go" amount.

Typical scenario...action to me, I say, "Raise". Then pondered the amount. Then announce the amount, "$2300 to go", then put my chips in.

Being clear is always the best.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Wedge Rock

Best advice is announce your intentions... and be specific... I usually give the "to go" amount.

Typical scenario...action to me, I say, "Raise". Then pondered the amount. Then announce the amount, "$2300 to go", then put my chips in.

i prefer the "to go" as well, although i usually say "all day." here's the problem with the "i raise 1500" (as seen above by harl and matthew):

"i raise 1500"
"so how much is that total?" by the same chump that asks it every time
or...
"raise 1500 or bet 1500?" by el chumpo
"2300 all day" by frustrated me.

and that happens EVERY TIME unless you have a group of regulars. and i have one or two regulars that couldn't be trained out of it. they'd say all that, i suspect, to buy time (as if we wouldn't let them think it over). so why not just short circuit that and announce the total amount?

[OnTheButton]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I was in a multi table touney one time - bet was 800 I wanted to raise to 2300. I verball said "raise, 1500". Thinking I would call the 800 and add 1500 more. One player at the table (who wasn't even in the hand) threw a fit, that my raise was to 1500 total not 1500 more. I stayed quiet and let the dealer sort it out. They made it stay to a 1500 total bet - which was stupid since the min raise would be to 1600.

Matthew, were the blinds 400/800 during this hand?

Because technically (I had to research this one for a tournament we held a while back) from what I found, the "raises must double the amount of the previous raise" rule, should not include the original bet or "call" amount.

If the 800 bet to you in this hand, was a raise from say 400 (the BB amount) then the next appropriate minimum raise would be 1200, aka "double the raise amount" which was only 400.

You should not need to double the amount of the entire bet, just the amount of the raise on that bet.

So if the blinds in the tournament were say, 100/200 and a raise was made to 800 before your turn, the raise amount was only 600 and not 800, so a re-raise would at minimum need to be 1400, not 1600 since you can remove the "call bet" of 200, and just double the amount of the raise which was 600.

But if the blinds were 400/800 then you were correct in the next minium raise needing to be 1600, not 1500, unless 1500 was all the chips you had left to bet with.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is the way we've come to understand the "double the amount of the previous raise" rule.

[ky70]

My only question is if the 8 chips were put into the pot in "a single motion". For example, if the player had four $1 chips in one hand and four $1 dollar chips in the other hand and did not move both hands into the pot simultaneously, that would be a string bet.

[jojobinks]

that is correct, OTB.

50/100
1st raise to 300
2nd raise must be to at least 500
a third raise of that 500 must be to at least 700...

and so on.