[jaeden]

Hello All,

In a recent home game i held, we played a T2500 freezeout game with about 8 players. Please evaluate my play for a particular hand based on the following info:

Pre-flop

Blinds were at 25-50 and I was on the button. I pick up 44 and raised it to 150 preflop. Small blind re-raises to 300 total(doubling my raise). Everyone else folds to me and I call. Small blind is a weak-tight player.

On the Flop

Flop comes 10 8 5 rainbow. He bets out 500. Now......I think for a bit and put him on a big pair but I wasn't too sure. I figured he would make a continuation bet anyways so I just call with my lowly pocket 4s.

The turn card is an Ace. Now, at this point I figure if he bets again then I will definitely fold since I'm pretty sure I beat since he is a tight player. But to my surprise he checks to me. Now at this point I know that I have to bet because if doesn't have an Ace I will definitely take down the pot.
He ended up folding and found out he had QQ.

Here is my question: Is my call on the flop a bad play? In retrospect, I feel like I got lucky when that Ace came on the turn because that was the only way for me to win the pot. He acted weak by checking to me and I figured he would put me on an Ace since I raised pre-flop. After the game I felt like he must of thought that I was chasing with a big Ace and that I made a bad call on the flop.

What do you guys think?

Jaeden

[smoore]

Well, you correctly read the situation on the flop yet you still floated. This time it worked out for you because you hit one of your 6 probable outs if he does check the turn. If that turn had come K would you still have bluffed at the pot?

I routinely fold 44 to a cont bet from a tight player.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by smoore

Well, you correctly read the situation on the flop yet you still floated. This time it worked out for you because you hit one of your 6 probable outs if he does check the turn. If that turn had come K would you still have bluffed at the pot?

I routinely fold 44 to a cont bet from a tight player.

yeah, me too. tight opponent + i whiff the flop + he bets = fold.

[Billard]

All this depends upon the read you had on the player. Given what info we have, I think you played it exactly right. You were right to raise an unraised pot from the button, and you were right to call on the flop. The reason why I agree with your flop call is because the player might have made the same bet with AK or AQs as well as with JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. If he had TT, he'd likely check-raise you on the flop. If you're beat, as you were with QQ, you still have ten outs with the two 4s,
4 Ks and 4 As. Admittedly, the kings and aces are bluffing outs, but it sounds like you had a great read on your opponent.

A caveat here is that this play will only work against exactly the type of player you describe, a weak-tight player with enough of a stack to not feel he's committed to the hand. Just about any other type of player is going to stay until the end with QQ.

[Brent]

You should never start off by posting the results of a hand that you want people to analyze. All advice given is influenced by the outcome one way or another. I'm curious what Billard would have suggested you do on the turn had he not already known the results of this hand from the get go.

One thing here, you're leaving out some action, I think...did everyone fold to you preflop and you opened on the button or were there limpers in front of you?

[jaeden]

Originally Posted by Brent

You should never start off by posting the results of a hand that you want people to analyze. All advice given is influenced by the outcome one way or another. I'm curious what Billard would have suggested you do on the turn had he not already known the results of this hand from the get go.

One thing here, you're leaving out some action, I think...did everyone fold to you preflop and you opened on the button or were there limpers in front of you?

There were no limpers. I opened the pot. Thanks, I'll remember that for next time. I guess it only makes sense not to post the results. I just kept going that hand over and over in my head.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by jaeden

There were no limpers. I opened the pot.

Ok, well then I like the opening raise. You definitely have to call his min-raise. I would only be calling for set value really though.

As other have stated...when a weak-tight player reraises you preflop and then makes approximately a pot-sized bet on T85r he's telling you something (again it's hard to not be results-oriented here given that we know he has QQ). Obviously he could be c-betting something like AK...this is read dependent, but I am assuming this weak-tight player would only reraise preflop with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/maybe TT/and AK...I'm assuming AQ is out of his weak-tight reraising range?

I'm not comfortable committing this much of my stack this early with an underpair. I fold to his flop bet.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Billard

If you're beat, as you were with QQ, you still have ten outs with the two 4s,
4 Ks and 4 As. Admittedly, the kings and aces are bluffing outs, but it sounds like you had a great read on your opponent.

Counting Aces and Kings as "outs" is completely results-oriented thinking.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Brent

Counting Aces and Kings as "outs" is completely results-oriented thinking.

indeed. in addition, i disagree with billard about a weak-tight opponent c-betting with AK or AQ.

1) weak tight doesn't reraise with AQ, and often just calls with AK (just a drawing hand, you know)
2) weak tight doesn't c-bet ANYTHING. ever read cloutier?

[jaeden]

Originally Posted by Brent

Ok, well then I like the opening raise. You definitely have to call his min-raise. I would only be calling for set value really though.

As other have stated...when a weak-tight player reraises you preflop and then makes approximately a pot-sized bet on T85r he's telling you something (again it's hard to not be results-oriented here given that we know he has QQ). Obviously he could be c-betting something like AK...this is read dependent, but I am assuming this weak-tight player would only reraise preflop with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/maybe TT/and AK...I'm assuming AQ is out of his weak-tight reraising range?

I'm not comfortable committing this much of my stack this early with an underpair. I fold to his flop bet.

I failed to mention that I had won 2 big pots already and my chip stack was already at about 4000. I agree with your assessment however. I definitely would've folded if I had a lower chip stack but even still in retrospect, folding is the correct play.

Jaeden