[TheMightyJim2k]

I've been thinking about this for awhile and have tried it a couple of times at low stakes. I think that strategically you maximize your +EV at PL Omaha by sitting at a table with a small stack (ie about 50 bb). The reason being that in PL Omaha typically with an edge on the pf or on the flop you can not move people off of hands, and on later streets the decisions become very complex and a large pot can force you away from your big drawing hands if you are deep stacked against another deep stack player.

However if you buy in for the small stack at a table with deep stacks, you have several very strong plays that can't be countered. First if you find several players making very large raises pf you can move in with a very strong drawing hand (KKJT double suited or AT98 double suited T987 double suited etc) and with the money in the pot from limpers and several pot sized raises the equal to your stack you are certainly getting an overlay. With any of these hands you are never worse than 30% to win the pot against two other strong hands, and some will give you as much as 39-42%. In most of these situations you are getting almost 3-1 on your money with no worse than 2-1 odds against. This is a pretty strong +EV play. This is especially strong when you realize that your opponents almost always have AA when making this move leaving nearly all 6 of your hand combos alive.

The second strategy is to see flops in multiway pots that have been raised a little with similar hands and trying to flop big multi way draws. Such as a wrap with a flush draw, two pair with a flush draw, a set with gutshot, etc. Then just jamming on the flop when you are certainly getting odds with any callers, and all of the other money creates a huge overlay. Often you will find you are getting 4-1 or so on your money with a hand that is +40% to win the pot. This is great +EV.

So far my practice with this strategy as yielded some surprisingly good results. With a minimum stack you prevent yourself from getting bet off of your big hands on later streets, thus players usually can't give your big drawing hands the wrong pot odds to call. With a big stack you can lose a huge pot by making a large mistake on later streets, but with a small stack you can still win very large pots by creating a lot of action when you have a hand that can win against multiple opponents. I found that while you sometimes will lose your small stack when your draws miss, you can buy back in for another small stack and the double or triple up will more than make up for any loss. The added benefits include sending "sophisticated" big stacks on chip-spewing tilt, and sparking a lot of action and betting from the donkeys that become the pf and flop dead money overlay to your all-in move.

Anyone else tried this strategy? Thoughts on what I am trying? Any successful PL Omaha players out there?

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

So far my practice with this strategy as yielded some surprisingly good results. With a minimum stack you prevent yourself from getting bet off of your big hands on later streets, thus players usually can't give your big drawing hands the wrong pot odds to call. With a big stack you can lose a huge pot by making a large mistake on later streets, but with a small stack you can still win very large pots by creating a lot of action when you have a hand that can win against multiple opponents. I found that while you sometimes will lose your small stack when your draws miss, you can buy back in for another small stack and the double or triple up will more than make up for any loss. The added benefits include sending "sophisticated" big stacks on chip-spewing tilt, and sparking a lot of action and betting from the donkeys that become the pf and flop dead money overlay to your all-in move.

Anyone else tried this strategy? Thoughts on what I am trying? Any successful PL Omaha players out there?

Sounds to me more like you don't really want to gamble on your drawing hands. You lose less, but win less too. It would suck IMO to be all-in on the flop when you're freerolling a guy who doesn't realize it.
It's a bit of a Kill Phil strategy, which does work. If you can create the action early while still playing tight. I wouldn't call KKJT or T987 ds very strong drawing hands though. Good hands, but I'd much prefer the suited Ace+connectors.

[TheMightyJim2k]

you actually are gambling more. With a low stack typical Omaha players don't adjust to your play. What you find is that the big stacks just play against each other and you end up with a main pot that is 3 to 4x you stack. If you play your big draws with a deep stack and the betting and pot gets big you eventually get headsup and then you are at best getting 1.5 or 2-1 on your money. With a small stack you can easily get 3-1 on your money when guys are moving in with a big pair or on the flop when some is protecting their AA. You are almost always getting odds and they can't price you out on the turn or river.

It is vastly different from Kill Phil for two reasons...first this is PL so you can't get all-in preflop unless some else is already raising and reraising the full pot. In which case you aren't playing with fold equity you are playing +EV on your strong drawing hand. T987 double suited is a very strong drawing hand against two other big pair hands that are likely moving in on the flop. Even if you are up against AAxx then KKJT double suited is also a very decent drawing hand. You have lots of straight and flush potential as well as being able to spike a K or two pair to beat the AA.

And secondly you are not trying to get all-in so that you don't have to make decisions at all, you are trying to move-in because you have a +EV gamble and are getting a huge overlay in a multi-way pot. Kill phil never wants you to get called especially not multi-way. with my strategy I want everyone at the table to call and give me 8-1 on a hand that I am going to win 20% of the time. Kill Phil is a way of creating a lot of pf folding equity and avoiding being out played on later streets. My strategy is creating a lot of multiway pot overlay and avoiding getting priced out on later streets.

Obviously this strategy only works online since you can't go from table to table live. But I am pretty sure this is a sound and very profitable way to play online.

[TheMightyJim2k]

Apparently this strategy is not new, but was not well known until this guy's book that recently came out. I am sure he understands it much better than my simple theory, but it was interesting to find out that my theory actually holds some water. This was a brief summary on Amazon and I found out more from 2+2 and some other places:

Secrets of Professional Pot Limit Omaha: How to Win Big, Both Live and Online

by Rolf Slotboom


The author, long-time successful PLO cash game player Rolf Slotboom, reveals key information that has never appeared in print before. The following are just some of the topics that are discussed in this ground-breaking book: a revolutionary short-stack approach....

[plz]

This is a pretty interesting strategy and I'm sure that an analysis of the underlying mathematics would support this strategy. I play a lot of PLO in my home game and the nature of both pot-limit betting, as well as Omaha (high only), would combine to make this a very good strategy.

I will, however, note a couple of limitations that apply mostly to live games: (1) if you win a few pots using this strategy, you're no longer able to apply it since you'll become one of the big stacks and you can't go south (i.e., take money off the table) unless you actually leave the table; (2) if you constantly play this way with your friends, they'll eventually notice that it's not quite "sporting" and may object or even reduce their own stacks to minimize its effectiveness.

Still, though, it's a pretty cool strategy and obviously applicable to online games where you can exit the table once you've won a few pots, pocket some of your winnings, and find a new table fairly quickly with your reduced stack.

[jojobinks]

seems to me that this works in much the same way as ed miller's shortstack nlhe strat. differences: obviously NLHE is much less about draws, so he advocates waiting for big starting hands, as opposed to big flops.

but both are about having big stacks playing too loose against you and getting all in on the flop.

[Poboy]

Rolf Slotboom has some good PLO articles (or did) on Cardplayer. He has his own site too - www.rolfslotboom.com (no affiliation). Excellent writer.

I didn't say that the idea doesn't hold water. It's like Kill Phil in that you are maximizing odds by enabling yourself to see all five board cards without having to put in more money because you're all-in. Since Omaha is a drawing game, that's not a bad thing. And it's easier to pull $2 from two guys than $4 from one. But, it limits the amount you make when you have the nuts v 2nd nuts or are freerolling a guy, or when you could've pushed someone off with a big bet. The tradeoff is probably worth it, but there is one.
I'll give it a try when I get some money off WPX and onto a site w/PLO.

[TheMightyJim2k]

good posts by all and thanks for the replies (especially Poboy, sorry if I came off rude earlier I typed the message at work and didn't check it for tone).

I think this is a very +EV strategy online, and a way to take advantage of the LAG players online. You are probably sacrificing some EV of your absolute monster hands when your opponent also has a monster and you stack them. What you lose in that you gain in multi-way pot "dead money" overlay. ie with a small stack and aggressive and loose players found online you are typically going to get in with either a bunch of extra money from loose limpers and callers, or you will be all-in against several opponents that you have a significant edge when you consider your % to win. Obviously it would only be a temporary strategy live, as once you doubled or tripled up you would have to adapt your strategy to a normal stack size.

I read a little of Slotboom stuff from Cardplayer and he advocates playing very patiently and waiting for either huge hands (pkt AA and another pkt pair being double suited, or AAJT double suited) or being able to limp in late position with a big drawing hand (JT89 double suited, KKJT double suited, T987 double suited, 7654 double suited etc) and hitting a big flop. Then with a safe flop with the huge hand or a monster draw with the drawing hand he suggests moving in on the flop. You should then have and edge over opponents and dead money overlay.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

good posts by all and thanks for the replies (especially Poboy, sorry if I came off rude earlier I typed the message at work and didn't check it for tone).

You didn't come off rude, no need for apologies.