[yeltzen]

Okay, so I got frustrated with limit games last night, and decided now was as good as any time to get a NL cash game bankroll and start learning the game. I did pretty crappy last night, but pretty awesome today. Partly because of decent cards, partly because of the PP fish doing just what I want them to do - calling all in when I have a set, straight, flush, etc. So, I guess my question is: How do I know whether I'm playing well or not?

This is easy for me in limit. I could do that in my sleep. But I have no idea what to look for in NL, since I never play it. Should I have the same kind of stats in PT as I do for limit? Should I have a higher PFR%? Lower PFR%? Any other junk? I think I fold too much post-flop, but I ain't got no clue. ANY SUGGESTIONS WILL BE THANKED WITH NAME-CALLING.

[noelsarchs]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Okay, I'm playing on my free PP money. I've never really played NL cash games before. Well, I have, but back when I didn't know **** about poker. Here's what I'm learning:

- My great strategy of trying to "dupe" people into preflop all-ins is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever come up with.

- Playing AK like it's AA is maybe not a very good idea.

- Top pair is like, not that good.

- An overpair is like, not that good.

- Two pair is like, not that good.


I'll add more as I go!

Geez, I found out the same thing by playing 3 chiptalk tourneys for 10 bucks each.

AA cracked in my first one....result OUT
QQ cracked by Ax two weeks ago.....result OUT
AK hearts with a x K x flop last week.....result...up against pocket AA and strike 3 I'm out.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by noelsarchs

Geez, I found out the same thing by playing 3 chiptalk tourneys for 10 bucks each.

AA cracked in my first one....result OUT
QQ cracked by Ax two weeks ago.....result OUT
AK hearts with a x K x flop last week.....result...up against pocket AA and strike 3 I'm out.

Last CT tourney, I went 7 for 9 in showdowns. The 2 hands I lost with were AA (vs AQo) and KK (vs A7o); figure that.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by _GUN_

if you flop bottom tow pair and there's an ace or king on board, check-call or fold. if you play a bad two pair aggressively, the guy with the garbage ace will never let it go. he will cold-call you all the way, then reraise you all-in on the river or some other dope move.

i'm going to say...bad advice. two pair is a strong hand here, although indeed it can be counterfeited...

Board: Ac 6d 2s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 74.5455 % 74.55% 00.00% { 62o }
Hand 2: 25.4545 % 25.45% 00.00% { ATo }

[_GUN_]

You can call it bad advice, but from personal experience, it's dangerous to create big pots with bad players in these spots.

I have lost more money with two pair, against a dope, playing top pair or a draw overly strong, than in any other situation. At this point, in my poker career, I'm going to say keep the pots as small as possible in these situations. If the other guy doesn't know outs/pot odds/betting patterns (poker), then keep the pots small with a bad two pair, if you figure out he's got top pair and unable to get off it.

here's another situation, I've seen over and over again.

Let's say you have Ac5c....Ad 4d 3c....there's $1.75 in the middle (.25/.50 all limps pre-flop) , you checked from BB. now you lead for $1.50 to build the pot or take it there. You get called by one player. turn 8s. We have $4.75 in the middle now and you're still out of position, confident top pair with straight draw is good. You lead for $4 and get the instant call again. now 2d on the river.

You have a straight which has now lost to any flush, or random 5-6, for the straight draw that just couldn't lay it down. Now what? You check-call, check-fold, or you lead with the possibility of representing the flush or straight. You surely aren't going to check-raise here to bluff this guy off.

So you let's say you choose to make a defensive lead of $2, not expecting this guy to reraise you, if he has the garbage flush you're dreading.

He cold-calls again and shows you 6d 8d for a total drash draw. You've just given up $8.00 in a single hand of your $20 buy-in.

Now, let's examine the weak/loose player, had you not been so aggressive.

he semi-bluffs the flop for .50, you check-call that round.
turn, you check, he checks.
river, he bets $1, you call.

you lose $2.00, instead of $8.00

you can say that is playing it soft or timid, but I'm not concerned with numbers or charts here. I'm concerned with the player's inability to lay down draws and my $20 stake in this scenario. Everyone's going to tell you got unlucky or something like that. I'm going to tell you something else---you dance with a moron, you're going to have sore toes. It is very rare, that you get to play actual poker at low stakes. If I realize my opponent cannot lay down draws, I slow down and keep the pots smaller.

[yeltzen]

I can never take advice seriously if it suggests playing passively against someone willing to get all the money in with a worse hand.

Your example assumes that the "trash draw" wins every time. That doesn't happen. You will win the majority of the time against those draws. You won't get paid off on the river, but you'll win the pot.

[_GUN_]

I'm not saying you will always lose. I'm saying that you need to be prepared to live with the results.

There are going to be better spots to play a big pot, $8 of $20 represents 40% of your buy-in. In this situation, you either lost 40% or 10% of your stake (in the event, his draw hits). If this guy is willing to cold-call all the way with a weak flush draw, then you're going to find a much better spot to cripple him in the next 10 minutes.

[smoore]

Originally Posted by _GUN_

I'm going to tell you something else---you dance with a moron, you're going to have sore toes.

Haha, great line. Imma remember that one.

Although I don't agree with your analysis, I do agree with your conclusion.

BOTTOM TWO PAIR IS A TROUBLE HAND IN SSNLHE. (go absolutely batshiat with it in SSLHE, like to the felt sometimes)

That's just all there is to it. Don't build big pots with these hands, play smallball. You win small pots and lose small pots when you get counterfeited or when that weird flush/straight comes in. One thing _GUN_ didn't mention is that when these ragged cards come out, no one will give you much credit. Because they don't give you much credit they will call along with lots of draws. When you do win the pot it tends to be smaller (they fold) but when you lose it's a big one.

Win big, lose small.

[_GUN_]

I played one of those 4-player heads-up PLO matches last night. I dominate those. $5 buy-in, winner gets the full $20.

I almost never lose them. I'm heads-up in the final match and outplaying this guy with a slight lead. About 3300 to 2700. I lead with two pair and get raised. I put him on on top pair, board like 2-7-9 (27xx in the hole). 9 on turn, I check, he bets huge. I fold, 96% confident he has a set of nines now. That was about 800 chips flushed.

At the end of the match, all three hands where I lead with two pair, I took huge losses. another hand happened just like the first, his top pair turned into a set and I had to fold.

Keeping in mind, cash games are different from tournaments, and omaha is different from hold'em. Two pair is my kryptonite, regardless. I check-call with strong hands all night, and when I finally lead out on the flop to build a huge pot, the donkey interprets it as weak and reraises me(like I want). I continue to see my flopped two pair get counterfeited by sets and backdoor flushes & straights.

I always try to play small pots with bad players, when I sense they're weak, I slowplay 2nd pair, stuff like that. Two pair just never works out, though.

[coyote]

Originally Posted by _GUN_

You can call it bad advice, but from personal experience, it's dangerous to create big pots with bad players in these spots.

I have lost more money with two pair, against a dope, playing top pair or a draw overly strong, than in any other situation. At this point, in my poker career, I'm going to say keep the pots as small as possible in these situations. If the other guy doesn't know outs/pot odds/betting patterns (poker), then keep the pots small with a bad two pair, if you figure out he's got top pair and unable to get off it.

here's another situation, I've seen over and over again.

Let's say you have Ac5c....Ad 4d 3c....there's $1.75 in the middle (.25/.50 all limps pre-flop) , you checked from BB. now you lead for $1.50 to build the pot or take it there. You get called by one player. turn 8s. We have $4.75 in the middle now and you're still out of position, confident top pair with straight draw is good. You lead for $4 and get the instant call again. now 2d on the river.

You have a straight which has now lost to any flush, or random 5-6, for the straight draw that just couldn't lay it down. Now what? You check-call, check-fold, or you lead with the possibility of representing the flush or straight. You surely aren't going to check-raise here to bluff this guy off.

So you let's say you choose to make a defensive lead of $2, not expecting this guy to reraise you, if he has the garbage flush you're dreading.

He cold-calls again and shows you 6d 8d for a total drash draw. You've just given up $8.00 in a single hand of your $20 buy-in.

Now, let's examine the weak/loose player, had you not been so aggressive.

he semi-bluffs the flop for .50, you check-call that round.
turn, you check, he checks.
river, he bets $1, you call.

you lose $2.00, instead of $8.00

you can say that is playing it soft or timid, but I'm not concerned with numbers or charts here. I'm concerned with the player's inability to lay down draws and my $20 stake in this scenario. Everyone's going to tell you got unlucky or something like that. I'm going to tell you something else---you dance with a moron, you're going to have sore toes. It is very rare, that you get to play actual poker at low stakes. If I realize my opponent cannot lay down draws, I slow down and keep the pots smaller.

I don't understand. Jojo showed you in terms of equity how strong a junk two pair hand can be against a top pair ace. But to back up your point you drew up a completely different scenario where hero has top pair-no kicker and a gutshot against a 2 flush board. That's nowhere near the same situation.

Uggggh. Poker is gambling. You make money when your opponents put money in the pot getting the worst of it. Congratulations, in your example above, you let your opponent hit his flush for a grand total of .50 Gross.

If my opponent wants to call a $4 bet into an $8 pot on the turn with a naked flush draw, I'll take that EVERY TIME, 'cause guess what, 4 out of 5 times, he ain't hittin. If he hits, well that's why there's a reload button.