[Poboy]

Originally Posted by AceOnRiver

i agree with what doyles saying to some degree. i think that when you move up to the high stakes(100/200 and up) the players all have the same idea on how poker is played.

That's the opposite of what he's saying in that quote. He's saying lower stakes have better play than the high stakes because the grinders are playing in the lower ones. In the higher stakes there are people throwing money around. Like I said, I think that was true before the boom, but not anymore.

[bolgenmod]

AceontheRiver wrote: "in high stakes for the most part people play there hands the same way.they play different in different situations and mix up there play but you will NEVER see someone raise preflop to river with 6 3 offsuit in high stakes as you will in small stakes."

I have to disagree with you here Ace. You will indeed see people raise with 63o in high-stakes as well as low-stakes games, but the difference is that the high-stakes player generally has a good reason to raise with a trash hand like this whereas the low-stakes player will generally raise with this just because he or she thinks it is "fun."

And yes, a lot of the high-stakes play is about psychology. (Aside: I have no idea what stakes you play and admit that I do not play high-stakes by any means.) Those who do play high-stakes games always say that if you only play premimum hands at those stakes, you will soon go broke. I can't really understand some of your points (and you seem to contradict yourself), but I agree with what you seem at one point to be implying: that at the lower stakes you usually do need cards to win, but at higher stakes you need much more than cards to win.

And Yeltzen is correct -- you can beat the low-stakes players if you know how they play against those players. It is not a question of which is "real" poker -- it is a question of different skill sets for different games.

[SpeakEasy]

On-line I've played from very low limits up to $5/10NL, almost all NL. Live I've played from $3/6 limit up to $15/30 limit, and up to $10/20NL with $2000+ starting stacks. So, I can personally speak about these ranges.

At the lower limits, there are more weak players that don't really know what they are doing and more players that will pay off to your good hands. Slow to build a bankroll, but patience and basic solid play are the essential ingredients -- no (or very minimal) bluffing, slow-play, etc. Just play big pots with your best hands.

At the higher limits, everyone generally knows what they are doing, but there are still a good amount of bad players despite knowing all of the basics. There are less players that will pay off to your very best hands, but there are as many LAGs that like to throw chips around. FOr some, bigger bankrols means more loose play, so if you can avoid getting to LAG yourself, you can compete over time.

The very best place to play at the higher limits (higher end of my range, anyway), in my experience, is the cash games in Vegas during the WSOP. At the Rio last year, there were an astounding number of players with large bankrolls that were ultra-LAGs. The NL cash games were filled with what I believe to be on-line success stories (i.e. pasty, beefy young punks that looked like they spent all of their time at the computer), to whom a $2000 buy-in meant little. They knew what they were doing, but they still played extremely lose and would pay off good hands, then just rebuy to intentionally build up a donk image that (hopefullly, for them) would pay off by the end of a session.

The point is that, even at the higher levels, if you find the right place, game, players, etc., you can still play solid poker and win, but all the players generally know what they are doing.

As for the very highest levels -- I only know what I've seen in person, read, and watched on TV, which isn't really much information.

[Button Potato]

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

The very best place to play at the higher limits (higher end of my range, anyway), in my experience, is the cash games in Vegas during the WSOP. At the Rio last year, there were an astounding number of players with large bankrolls that were ultra-LAGs. The NL cash games were filled with what I believe to be on-line success stories (i.e. pasty, beefy young punks that looked like they spent all of their time at the computer), to whom a $2000 buy-in meant little. They knew what they were doing, but they still played extremely lose and would pay off good hands, then just rebuy to intentionally build up a donk image that (hopefullly, for them) would pay off by the end of a session.

Boy ain't that the truth! I bought in to three events during the wsop - including the main event. I didn't cash in a single event yet I still made just under $11,000 playing the NLHE ring games.

[AceOnRiver]

YELTZEN

first of all how do you know that high stakes is harder if you have never played it.you said high stakes is harder than small stakes case closed.if you havent even played high stakes then you have no idea what your talking about.your assuming by what you see on tv.yes it is obviously more diffucult when you sit down with people like doyle,negreanu,elezra,todd brunson,greenstein ect.they will eat you and me alive.but when your playing online high stakes or in a regular casino high stakes without sitting with legends its a whole different ballgame.i wil tell you from experience that higher stakes is easier and more fun to play than small stakes.small stakes you must wait around to make big hands.in high stakes you can splash around more, bluff more,and actually play poker more instead of the waiting game.

now ive been playing poker since 1999-2000 which is about 7 years or a little more so i wouldnt call me a beginner to the game of poker.i agree with what you are saying but it is kinda opposite of what you said earlier.you said that you need to know the best way to protect your hand.ok well earlier you said that people will call you down with bottom pair.how do you protect your hand when people call you down with bottom pair.i agrree with you need to know how to build a big pot with your big hands.thats def correct.and last, hands like 22,33 and j10s and 910s are playable with many people going to the flop BUT you need to make a big hand to keep playing it and win money.hints what i was saying about waiting for big hands(guess it would have been better to word it wait to make big hands).i think you guys are thinking im saying wait for AA,KK or QQ and then go for the gold.thats not what im saying.you can play a range of hands like you mentioned BUT you must make a big hand to play it all the way and make big money.if you have j10s and flop comes j high and you bet and get raised and 3 other people call the raise(which very frequently happens in small stakes) you must fold because this hand isnt big enough for you to win money.this is what i mean by waiting for big hands.of course your not going to fold hands like j10s and 9 10s when theres 7 to 9 people going to the flop thats the best time to play these hands because once you make a big hand you will win big(like i was saying).and you are also correct in that it just takes different skills than the higher limits.the number 1 skill in small stakes is patience.

BOLGENMOD

you misunderstood what i wrote.it says that you will never see someone raise PREFLOP TO RIVER with 63 offsuit as you will in smaller stakes.it says that they mix up there play and play differently in different situations.they play and raise these hands like 63 and 74 offsuit to MIX UP THEIR PLAY so that people cant put them on hands which is a good reason to do so as you stated.which is what i was trying to get across there by saying mix up their play.i agree with you saying that smaller limits they just do it for fun.i agrre with the higher limits being more pshcology and you cant just play premium hands which is the best part of high stakes poker because you can make bluffs and actually get people to fold.you pick spots and feel weakness and and play a hand very strong to complete a bluff and they will actually fold.you can play those wierd 63 offsuit hands like that and mix your game up so that people are always guessing what you have.(great example of this is daniel negreanu on high stakes poker he plays 63 offsuit and 74 offsuit more than anyone that ive seen other than gus hansen, this keeps everyone guessing) in smaller stakes as yeltzen stated you will get people to call you with bottom pair so it is very hard to bluff because even if you feel weakness and play it strong to bluff people will still call you down with bottom pair.hinting me saying you must wait for big hands to play a pot strong in small stakes.i will try to answer any questions you have about my contridicting statements if you would like.bottom line is higher limits are easier to play than smaller limits.and yes i was wrong for saying that small stakes is not real poker.that was dumb to say.it just requires a completely different set of skills to play it.its almost like a totally different game.

ANOTHER GREAT EXAMPLE OF HIGHER LIMIT PLAYERS PLAYING THE SAME WAY IS ON POKER SUPERSTARS TONIGHT.HOWARD LEDERER SAID WHAT HE WOULD DO, OR WHAT HE THOUGHT JOHNNY CHAN WOULD DO, AND JOHNNY CHAN MADE THE SAME EXACT BETS,CHECKS,FOLDS THAT HOWARD SAID ABOUT 5 TO 6 TIMES AT LEAST.CHRIS ROSE ACTUALLY STATED"WOW ITS LIKE YOU GUYS ARE ON THE SAME WAVE LENGTH"or something of that nature

thank god for speakeasy.finally another player that playes higher that 5/10 that understands what im saying.he states this about small stakes "Patience and solid play are the essential ingrediants--no (or very minimal) bluffing,slow playing, ect. JUST PLAY BIG POTS WITH YOUR BEST HANDS".this is exactly what ive been trying to say in these very long posts.LOL.now to back this up.the two people that are saying this(me and speakeasy) are the ones playing in the higher limit games.we both started in the smaller limit games also, and have worked our way up to the higher limits.therefore we must know something about what we are saying. we are the ones that play the high stakes games now and most of you guys that say we are or i am "wrong" are the ones still playing the small stakes games.so you tell me which strategy works better and whos results are better(ours or yours).if you guys dont want to believe me or him thats fine thats your choice.you can choose to play however you would like to play. after all its your money. BUT REMEMBER that we have moved on past the small stakes playing this way that we are telling you and you guys are the ones that are still playing the small stakes.

[DoubleDeuce]

So is it safe to say that at high stakes poker the hand reading skills are more advanced and therefore players need to disguise their hands more with bluffs, semi-bluffs, and slowplays as opposed to small stakes players who overplay marginal hands?

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by AceOnRiver

YELTZEN
first of all how do you know that high stakes is harder if you have never played it.

ok well earlier you said that people will call you down with bottom pair.how do you protect your hand when people call you down with bottom pair.

Because it is. The skills you need for high stakes poker are more complex than the ones you need for small stakes games. Small stakes games require you to have a good understanding of math and a few major concepts. You don't need to read hands or play psychological games or have great poker instincts - those are all very difficult to learn and use.

As for protecting your hand, I don't think you really understand what that term means. Of course people will call you down with bottom pair in small stakes games. Sometimes they'll spike two pair and beat you. That doesn't mean you can't protect your hand. Protecting your hand just means making the dopes pay to draw with a suspect hand. It doesn't mean you have to win all the time. But people will have AK and the flop will be Ks 7s 2h and they'll sit there and check it trying to "trap" someone. That's failing to protect your hand.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by DoubleDeuce

So is it safe to say that at high stakes poker the hand reading skills are more advanced and therefore players need to disguise their hands more with bluffs, semi-bluffs, and slowplays as opposed to small stakes players who overplay marginal hands?

Exactly. You make your money in high stakes games by confusing your opponents. You make money in small stakes games by taking advantage of people who don't know what they're doing. When you flop a small set with an A and K on board, you can build an enormous pot because the players don't know how to let go of the hand, they want to bet and raise.

[AceOnRiver]

ok i guess im an idiot. i have no idea what im talking about.well i guess i will just keep playing my high stakes and you can keep grinding out your small stakes games since you know how to beat them so well.that must be why you are still playing them and i have beat them and moved on to higher stakes.

you have no idea what your talking about.all you can say is "because it is".you havent played high stakes therefore you have no idea what it requires to play the game.again you are assuming by what you see on tv.it is much easier to play high stakes with regular players and not legends that you see on tv.you have to read hands no matter what stakes you are playing.how else would you know what your opponent has and if you are beat or not.you also have to play pshcology games with any stake game you play.this is called deception.if you bet or raise everytime you have a good hand, or check fold everytime you have nothing it will be easy to play against you.hints using psycology.when you mix up your game this is using psycology to play.and as far as poker instincts yes this comes to certain people but it isnt necessarily a must have to play winning poker.

i just dont see how you can argue with someone that has already beat the games that you are playing.you keep telling me im wrong but yet ive already beat those games you play and moved to higher stakes.obviously i must have some idea of what im talking about.if you know how to beat the small stakes so well then you would have already moved up to higher stakes.but you havent so you must not know how to beat them as well as you are describing.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by AceOnRiver

ok i guess im an idiot.i dont have any idea what im talking about.well i will just keep playin my high stakes and can keep playin grinding out your small stakes games since you know how to beat them so well.thats must be why you are still playing them and i have already beat them and moved up to high stakes.good luck

I didn't say you were an idiot. I said that it doesn't sound like you know what protecting your hand means if you think that the only way you can protect your hand is by making everyone fold. Good attempt at an insult, by the way, especially since we've already established in this thread that the level one plays at isn't necessarily an indication of their skill level.