Short-ish stack play

tomb1 · #1 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 09:11 AM

Gimme your input, please. There was a lot of chat about this hand...

Large PokerStars tourney, nearing the bubble. Full table, seat #6 is button. Level 13, blinds are 1000/2000 with 100 ante, so 3,900 in the pot before the deal.

Tomb1 is c/o seat #5 with 26,477 (M < 7)

Seats 9-1-2-3-4 all fold.

I look down at

Button and SB are decent players, with stacks of 70,184 and 75,183. BB has 43,570.

I min-raise to 4,000 (the typical raise raise that's taken down unopened pots recently)

Button folds, SB folds.

BB is loose player with 43,570 in chips, but down from 80,000+ and seems like he's on tilt. I took a nice pot from him about 40 minutes ago with pocket JJ versus his Big Slick and an A-K-J flop.

BB comes over the top and pushes all-in (has me covered).

I think: I'm ready to gamble on a coin-flip with low M ... I'll bust out here OTM or get a nice stack to finish deep in the money ... I think BB is trying to push me out with a medium hand.

So I call, all-in for me.

1. Should I have even tried a steal here, or just fold pre-flop?

2. Should I have raised more pre-flop?

3. Should I have folded to his re-raise?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

BB show Ac Js and has me dominated.

Flop 8c 6h 7c

BB goes wild -- "this site is such a joke" and "ur garbage tomb" and "everyone sux" and "fcuking BS" (quoted from the hand history BTW)

Turn Qh

River 2s

I double up and go on to finish in the money, though not in the really big money.

FL70 · #2 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb1

1. Should I have even tried a steal here, or just fold pre-flop?

2. Should I have raised more pre-flop?

3. Should I have folded to his re-raise?

1. Could go either way. <7 M is getting to desperate and you may not see better than A8

2. Yes

3. Given your read, no.

coyote · #3 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 03:44 PM

Min raising was horrible. I know you say that it's been taking down pots uncontested, but there is just no way I want to invite the BB in by giving him 4:1, I mean that's at least an auto call isn't it??

That is a push or fold, and pushing was the right play. You were getting called either way.

geewhiz41 · #4 (**permalink**) 08-09-2006, 04:03 PM

Hate to pile on, but I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with such a small raise. Your hand is better than average, but not that great, and you really don't want to play it if you don't have to. Stealing from the CO with A-x is almost expected, so give yourself the best chance to pull it off you can by making a good strong raise.

In this particular instance, BB has a pretty decent A, so his response is to be expected, especially if he sees your wuss raise as a steal. But on the other hand, your small raise makes it easy for you to get away from the hand. Fearing domination, I would have chickened out and folded. I'd still have a crappy M of 5, but I'd gamble that I could do better with another hand in the future.

coyote · #5 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 08:54 AM

Uggh. With an M getting that small, opening in late position for a raise with the intent of folding to a reraise is losing poker.

At that point of the tourney, you simply can't be putting chips in a pot unless you are committed to your hand.

There is also no more limping, unless it is with the intent to reraise all-in... not a likely scenario.

Guma · #6 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 09:12 AM

Sorry to thread jack from the main topic of the OP, and please excuse my ignorance...

What are you guys talking about when referring to his M or M < 7?

Poboy · #7 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 09:13 AM

Push pre flop. BB just lost half his stack, make him put in half his stack again. Luckily, he corrected your error for you.

w16227 · #8 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb1

Gimme your input, please. There was a lot of chat about this hand...

Large PokerStars tourney, nearing the bubble. Full table, seat #6 is button. Level 13, blinds are 1000/2000 with 100 ante, so 3,900 in the pot before the deal.

Tomb1 is c/o seat #5 with 26,477 (M < 7)

Seats 9-1-2-3-4 all fold.

I look down at

Button and SB are decent players, with stacks of 70,184 and 75,183. BB has 43,570.

I min-raise to 4,000 (the typical raise raise that's taken down unopened pots recently)

Button folds, SB folds.

BB is loose player with 43,570 in chips, but down from 80,000+ and seems like he's on tilt. I took a nice pot from him about 40 minutes ago with pocket JJ versus his Big Slick and an A-K-J flop.

BB comes over the top and pushes all-in (has me covered).

I think: I'm ready to gamble on a coin-flip with low M ... I'll bust out here OTM or get a nice stack to finish deep in the money ... I think BB is trying to push me out with a medium hand.

.

Good tweener hand.

You M is right about 6 (adjusting for stars 9 handed tables). Nearing critical - but not there yet. The problem is, any raise puts you into the critical zone.

You really have two moves here - fold or allin. Anything else and you could face the allin decision on the wrong side (you wanna bet that stack for yout tourney life, not call for it).

If the table has been weak enough - I push. If they have shown a willingness to gamble, I fold it (as I will most likely be called for a coinflip).

w16227 · #9 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guma

Sorry to thread jack from the main topic of the OP, and please excuse my ignorance...

What are you guys talking about when referring to his M or M < 7?

Hey Guma

M was defined in the Harrington on Holdem books (some pros use other terms to describe it). It is basically a ratio of blinds/anties to your stack size and can dictate how you have to play in a tournament. If you let your "M" fall too low, you are pretty much statistically eliminated from a tourney as you would need to double up 2-3 times quickly to survive.

A simplified example - is when your stack falls below 10x the big blind. If you are in that situation, you only have one real move when entering a pot - push.

Tomb had ~ 26,500 in chips
blinds/anties for a round are 3900 (each rotatin costs a player this many chips).

26500/3900 = 6.8, I "adjusted" this to 6 as pokerstars plays 9 handed instead of ten (you adjust downward as the table gets smaller since the BB hits you more often).

M>20, good shape. Play whatever form of poker you want.
M10-20: OK shape, tighted up the starting hands and play strong holdings aggressively.

M5-10, poor shape, but not dead. Tight is right - and attack with strong hands.

M<5, you need help. You need to push allin enytime there is a reasonable chance to pick up the blinds/anties. Luck has to be on your side - cuz you will get called by almost anything reasonable since you cannot really scare anyone off.

M<3, critical. Push/call any hand. You need to luckbox out several times to survive.

Tomb's hand is tricky - he is not 5 or under, but any PF raise puts him there. If he os prepared to call the reraise, he is better off pushing as there is a much better chance that dominating hands would fold.

geewhiz41 · #10 (**permalink**) 08-10-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote

Uggh. With an M getting that small, opening in late position for a raise with the intent of folding to a reraise is losing poker.

At that point of the tourney, you simply can't be putting chips in a pot unless you are committed to your hand.

There is also no more limping, unless it is with the intent to reraise all-in... not a likely scenario.

Agree 100%, and unfortunately, one finds themselves in these kinds of situations an awful lot in tourneys and SnG's. When you think about all there is to think about during a tournament--your stack, your opponents' stack, how the table has been playing, how many spots left until you're in the money, oh, and yes, your cards, it's enough to make anyone's head spin.